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Comment from: Kiel Christianson [Visitor] Email
Excellent advice, Jen!
08/24/07 @ 14:12
Comment from: Ron Mon [Member] Email
I'll take issue with this one. Every new design that I've played since taking the golf-writing world by vesper has offered five tee decks. One for masochists like me above 7K, one between 63 and 68, one around 6000, and two below 6000. Since Alice Dye introduced Paul "Pete" Dye to women's golf, designers, owners and builders have been much more attuned to the needs of golfers of all lengths. The only place where I see two (or sometimes, simply one!) tee deck are the local municipal courses, and the town, county, city, and state workers never listen to anyone, anyway, anyhow.
08/24/07 @ 14:20
Comment from: sid [Visitor] Email
Why not give the same advice to: Jack,
Davis,Greg and others.

The bottom line is, any sports figure
in the US with just "one drop of Negro
blood" in them had better beware!

They just can't wait to trip you up!
08/24/07 @ 14:43
Comment from: Chris Baldwin [Member] Email
Once Ron Mon disagreed with you Jen, your always sweet words were further validated. You might want to start reading the blogs before commenting teacher man.

Note Super Mario points out that many courses have even four tee boxes for men to chose from. Which in the five tee box norm you cited yourself Mon would leave exactly one for the ladies.

Jen is asking for more, for an actual choice, and making an excellent point. English really isn't your strong subject Ron Mon. I weep for the children of Buffalo.

08/24/07 @ 14:49
Comment from: JR [Visitor] Email
sid....where did that come from... while I might not agree with Jennifer on this, she was only offering a suggestion to Tiger since he's "starting out" in course design. Race has nothing to do with this... I think you want to reply to those Vick blogs rather than this one.
08/24/07 @ 15:11
Comment from: Brooklyn [Visitor] Email
Sid, Uncalled for...there was no malice whatsoever toward Tiger in the suggestion. None! Just an honest observation...one person's point of view. Lighten up, have a beer or two. You'll feel better.
08/24/07 @ 15:39
Comment from: sid [Visitor] Email
Hi. Jr and Brooklyn,

Your points are taken.

I too bear no
ill will or vindictive feelings
toward the sentiments you all thought
proper to express.

Nevertheless, I will go have two beers...

08/24/07 @ 16:01
Comment from: One-Putt [Visitor] Email
I can see some six hour rounds on the horizon by backing the ladies tee further from the green.

Present company excluded Jen, the majority of ladies struggle from the red tees.

I coach a couple of college girls that walk directly to the men's whites when they play. It just wouldn't be fair if they hit from the reds, but they are the exception and not the rule.

The NCAA/USGA set up courses up a bit longer for women who play at their level. So Jen just walk up to the whites and swing away.
08/25/07 @ 03:15
Comment from: One-Putt [Visitor] Email
Now Jen I like your idea of shortening the course for ladies or elderly men as that would speed up rounds. The senior ladies I work with hit the ball very straight, but short. They just don't have the physical strength to hit it further.

Hopefully they could be taken into account by putting tee boxes in for the elderly golfers who have the spirit, but not the strength to hit a green in regulation.

As an experiment one day I asked a 70 year old golfer named Fred to try hitting from the ladies tees to see how he would score. For the first time in many years Fred was hitting greens in regulation and having the time of his life. The 85 he carded was the best score for him in many years. From then on he called them, "the over seventy tees" and he continued to play from them until he passed on.
08/25/07 @ 03:31
Comment from: Ron Mon [Member] Email
Rather than weep for the children of Buffalo, we all should hold hands and weep for at least one adult of Las Vegas. Sadly for Baldwin, he is unable to discern that women and men can share tee decks. Or, do they have gun-toting marshals on duty in your land, forcing women to play one and only one tee deck? Funny, but here in the land of the free, women can golf their balls wherever they wish (will be posted on a Baldwin blog, too, in case he forgets to check.)
08/26/07 @ 00:03
Comment from: wendy [Visitor]
Excellent suggestion Jen! In France the golf courses have 4 tee decks according to handicap. It took my husband years to figure out why he had never beaten me there - my tees are "half-way down the fairway" - his words!! It builds up tremendous confidence for beginners and then one simply moves back a tee.
By the way a 500lb. man did once try to clear me off "the men's tee" at a local municipal course here in England. He still walks and talks in a funny way I assume. However, I do find our uphill par 3 of 172 yds. from the red tee totally impossible to reach. Sure I can par it the hard (or lucky) way, but mentally I'm defeated on the tee shot. More choice for all, I say. At our local course only two "ladies" tees are more than 5 yds. forward of the "men's" tees, which is ridiculous.
08/26/07 @ 12:43
Comment from: Jennifer Mario [Member] Email
Hi, Ron of the Mon,
while I appreciate that women and men can indeed share tee decks, my point is that on most courses, only one set of tees is sloped and rated for women--largely because only one set of tees is remotely reachable for women. This matters if you're 1) keeping track of your handicap, or 2) interested in making par, ever.

As Wendy points out, we can par it "the hard (or lucky) way," but isn't the point to reach the green in the appropriate number of strokes?

What I'm suggesting is adding another set of tees shorter than current red distances (call them pink if you want), so that women have the equivalent of choosing between multiple, reachable, distances, which men do every time they choose between whites, blues, and tips.
08/26/07 @ 14:12
Comment from: Alex [Visitor] Email

While bother with golf at all?

Petit-point anyone?
08/26/07 @ 21:14
Comment from: John D [Visitor]
Don't forget to put in the "Jr" green tees for Wie-Wee. She is, afterall, just a child, who can't seem to hit the ball very far.
08/27/07 @ 18:13
Comment from: John D [Visitor]
Oh, one more thing... The green tees wi now be referred to as the "Wie-Wee" tees.
08/27/07 @ 18:15
Comment from: Ron Mon [Member] Email
What am I missing? With five tee decks, you have monstrous length, superior length, average guy/superior girl length, average girl length, and beginner length. Harvest Hill Golf Club, Orchard Park, New York and Diamond Hawk , Cheektowaga, New York, were opened in 2007 and 2006, respectively, and adhere to this principle. They both stretch from 5000 to 7200 yards. If you cannot play a 5000 yard course, go back to the practice facility.
08/29/07 @ 22:10
Comment from: Jennifer Mario [Member] Email
Ron--Check the slope and rating of most red tees, and you'll find that they usually match the slope and rating of men's blue tees; whites, for women, generally match the slope and rating of men's tips. In other words, we don't get to choose between whites and blues, instead our choice is equivalent to guys getting to pick between blues and tips.

If the courses in your area actually have more than one set of tees sloped and rated for women, and those ratings match whites and blues for men, then that's great. But I've played the red tees at many courses around the country, and believe me, such courses are rare.
08/30/07 @ 10:30
Comment from: 2under [Visitor] Email
I picked four courses in close proximity to my home.

Red Hawk Ridge
5 Tee Boxes
Black - 6942
Gold - 6276
Blue - 5923
White - 5356
Red - 4636

Bear Dance
5 Tee Boxes
Pro - 7661
Black - 7279
Blue - 6814
White - 6228
Gold - 5175

Ridge at Castle Pines
4 boxes
Black - 7013
Gold - 6490
Silver - 6002
Jade - 5011

Plum Creek
5 boxes
Black - 7118
Blue - 6583
Plum - 6272
White - 5935
Red - 4903

I have to agree with RonMon. Plenty of choice for the ladies. If you want easy, pick the reds. If you want more of a challenge, play from the whites. All of this is altitude golf as well, so the ball flies 10% farther, and there is more roll.

And there's a simple solution here. If you can't hit it from the teebox, what's the problem of creating your own teebox in the fairway? If 185 is too tough, tee it up from 150 if it concerns you so much.

09/04/07 @ 15:56
Comment from: Shanks [Member] Email
How thoughtful of RonMonster. "If you cannot play a 5000 yard course, go back to the practice facility." You should be ashamed of yourself. Why the hostility? What's the big deal with putting another tee box in, especially if it will help speed up play?A very large number of women golfers don't have the physical strength to play a 5000-5200 yard course on an equitable basis with a man playing, say, a 6000-6200 yard track. The problem is that nobody ever bothers to check with the average female golfer about anything. They just get what they get.
09/05/07 @ 15:33
Comment from: 2under [Visitor] Email

Not to nitpick, but golf is a "get what you get" sport. It always has been, and in my opinion, it always should be. The rules are designed in that fashion. You play the ball as it lies. Course setup is no different. It's supposed to be a challenge. If the challenge is too much, you have a choice. Practice and get better, or find a more suitable challenge for your game. Stealing a quote from Ian MacCallister, "golf isn't supposed to be easy." If you need extra distance, maybe you should look into some NXT's...

There are also plenty of executive courses available, if 5000 yards is too much. And that doesn't just apply for the ladies. There are quite a few men and kids who would be well-served to work on their game in a more appropriate setting.

On a slightly different tack, I am all for going back to the days of three tee boxes.

Designers spend tons of $$ building tee boxes. Grounds Super's pay $$ for cutting grass. I say put in 3 tee boxes, and cut three strips for each box. Why the heck do we need to mow so much of the teebox? For that matter, why do we need to mow so much of the surrounding areas to tee boxes, in between holes, etc? I bet if you analyze your local course, you would see at least 10% of the grounds that are mown on a regular basis that have no bearing on play for the average golfer. We should do our part to conserve, keep down costs and protect our environment.

09/05/07 @ 19:26
Comment from: Shanks [Member] Email
I agree with you to a point, 2under. I'm just saying that in my opinion the "forward tees" aren't forward enough in most cases. Top females can always play from the regular white tees if the forward tees are too short for their tastes. But when the tees are too far back there is no alternative other than to struggle. How many average or senior male golfers would complain if the white tees were rarely shorter than 6500-6600 yards? Plenty.
09/06/07 @ 10:54
Comment from: 2under [Visitor] Email

Okay, I am going to split hairs with you.

"Most cases"? There may be some cases, but I wouldn't say "most".

5000 yards isn't that long, even at sea level. If you can't play that distance, it presents one with choices - pick a different course, tee one up from the fairway, or play an executive course.

Seniors already do it. They stay away from the courses that don't suit them. And your question about senior golfers complaining is basically moot, because "if if's were skiffs we'd all be sailors". The scenario you describe is not a common one. We have a course in Colorado which is 8112 yards from the tips. I choose to play it on special occasion for the challenge. But I accept that challenge up front, knowing that some holes are unreachable in the traditional GIR.

09/06/07 @ 12:57
Comment from: Becky [Visitor] Email
You really want to speed up play on you're local muni or at you're private club? How about keeping those beer bellied hackers off the back tee boxes. My friends and I dread playing behind these Tiger wannabees who spray the ball all over the course and don't have the distance or the overall game to play from 6300 yards, let alone 7000 yards.

From a women who carries a 5 handicap(used to be a 2...three kids has slowed me down a bit) from my clubs blue tees(nearly 6500 yards) I like the idea of adding another set of tee boxes for shorter hitting women, seniors and juniors.
09/11/07 @ 08:04
Comment from: 2under [Visitor] Email
"Spraying"...from a "beer-bellied hacker", means that someone needs to spend some time on the practice ground. Adding expenses by adding tee boxes isn't the answer for this player.

If the distance is too great, find an executive course.

09/11/07 @ 08:39
Comment from: Beth [Visitor] Email
Here's a different spin....I am a 10-handicap player who often chooses to play from the 'whites,' not because of the length...but rather because most of the courses in my area OFTEN have the red tee boxes sitting behind a tree! It's amazing how many times this happens. My guess is that the course designer has never played the course from the reds. From the reds, I often would have to lay a shot on a par 4 out 50-75 yards in order to get around a tree. I can get great height on a shot-even with driver but in most cases, going over the trees isn't even an option. There isn't any way to go at the green like you can from the whites. This is most frustrating for me! So my advice is simply give those hitting from the reds the same fair advantage at going for the green that those playing whites get.
09/16/07 @ 19:17
Comment from: wendy [Visitor]
Jen, delighted that this one still seems to be going strong - and such divided opinions, too. Happy for all those who have access to courses with 4 or more tees, and those who have the time and inclination to travel around to different courses with such facilities. I just wish to play my local course 3 times a week. It only has 2 tees (3rd reserved for competitions only). The only response I get from the management is that the yardage conforms to official standards. I think it's more likely to do with the cost of maintaining more tees. The only reason I have respectable scores is because I hit the ball short and straight - it's sometimes difficult to keep a straight face (isn't it Becky?) at the macho sprayers, but at least most of them have the decency to let me play through. I just want this ONE blasted hole to have a more forward tee - the uphill, into the wind (always), no fairway only rough from tee to green. On second thoughts, so do most of the elderly men. Perhaps I'll get up a petition. PS - I'm already lifting weights and my driver is almost the same height as me. I'm the Ian Woosnam (remember him?) of the women's game, but without the bad language (most of the time) and the ability to hold my drink.

About time you posted an interesting blog, Ron - one which generates as much comment as this one?
09/20/07 @ 14:20
Comment from: Zachariah Cantres [Visitor]
superlative tally you get hold of
11/30/10 @ 10:32

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