« ABC Sports drops out of PGA Tour's next TV dealThe Onion on Annika Sorenstam's success golfing with other gals »

285 comments

Comment from: Young [Visitor]
Wow.

Slow news day, huh?

An article about an article about how a 16-year old girl answered a question.

Wow.

I suppose there must be a mandate from your management. Talk about Michelle Wie because no one will bother reading the drivel here otherwise.


2006-01-04 @ 05:19
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
RUBBISH.
Jennifer Mario pointed out that if Michelle chose either option, it would be considered the wrong answer by a large number of people.

Michelle took the political answer and that was the correct one.

You think she can't decide which she wants! Inside, she knows exactly which she would prefer, but she is too smart to give her critics quotes to attack her on.
2006-01-04 @ 08:58
Comment from: Mark Nessmith [Visitor]
>>>"... if Michelle chose either option, it would be considered the wrong answer by a large number of people."

=================

So?
2006-01-04 @ 09:09
Comment from: June [Visitor]
And you are wrong on this one, Mark. And Michelle already knew she wouldn't make everybody happy either way long time ago. Guess what? She was right. No matter what she said, there would be a crowd like you criticizing her move one way or other.
2006-01-04 @ 09:26
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Since Michelle chose to be coy and non-committal to Mark's question, permit me to answer that question for myself and most of her fans. When and if Michelle Wie wins an LPGA tournament this year as the youngest player to do so, that will far outstrip her making a cut in any PGA event. Since money isn't the main concern here, in a few years the trophies on the mantel will mean something. The long-forgotten publicity blurbs will not. Winning and/or finishing up the leader board are signs of consistency and a satisfying career. The same can't be said for getting lucky and tying for 70th once in one's life after two rounds in a Men's event of secondary quality.
2006-01-04 @ 10:01
Comment from: Mark Nessmith [Visitor]
June wrote:
"No matter what she said, there would be a crowd like you criticizing her move one way or other."

======================

Again, so what? Public figures get criticized; big deal. What I think or write or say shouldn't matter to Michelle Wie. What matters is what she believes and what she decides to focus on. Hey, if my daughter wants a pair of Nike Michelle Wie golf shoes when she's older, you KNOW I'm going to buy them for her - I LIKE Michelle. But my daughter's just 2 now and if there's to be any Nike/Wie shoe on the market when my daughter's old enough to care, Michelle is going to have to decide on what she wants the start focusing. Otherwise, she'll just be the female Ty Tryon. God, 40+ weeks of competition on the LPGA Tour is going to shred this poor girl her first year out. She'll have to be tough to weather that and learn to win.
2006-01-04 @ 10:23
Comment from: June [Visitor]
What I am saying is, Mark, that you are simply one of everybody that Michelle cleverly pointed out long ago by saying "I know I can't make eveybody out there happy".

She is not out there to make you happy or make you agree with her and I for one don't care what you think of her. I just pointed out your opinion is exactly what she expected one way or the other.

SO WHAT?
2006-01-04 @ 11:28
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
June, Michelle is a public figure, and as such she should be concerned with making her fans happy and converting those folks who are not her fans. That is what Nike and Sony shelled out the big bucks for. By taking such a non-commital stance she has satisfied nobody. It couldn't have been that hard for her to say "I'd really like to win a tournament on the LPGA this year so all my supporters will know I'm the real deal." Who could have possibly objected to that response? By the way, I don't think that Michelle could have spoken those words you quoted either "long ago", or "cleverly". She's only 16, and from what I've heard, she's not very clever. She does have game, though.
2006-01-04 @ 11:53
Comment from: alan [Visitor]
Alex
You must walk about half asleep.
Wie is making her fans very happy and she has plenty of them.
Fortunately you can't answer for her, and I don't think your version would match Michelles.
Mark, she will only play 8 LPGA events this year. I'm sure it won't shred her too much.
Alan M
2006-01-04 @ 12:48
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
alan, please make your best effort not to introduce personal invective on this thread. If I do lack proper rest, it is because I stay up late pondering ways to find methods of bringing misguided Brits into the 21st century. Previously you confessed that you did not reside in the US and therefore your golf news sources were sketchy. If that is the case, continue to frequent this site, you just might learn something; and don't start getting your golf news also from AL-Jazeera.
2006-01-04 @ 13:09
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Mark said:
Michelle is going to have to decide on what she wants the start focusing. Otherwise, she'll just be the female Ty Tryon.

******************************

Why does she have to decide either the pga or lpga?
She can do both, for at least the next couple of years without even considering focusing on one.

In my opinion, she WANTS to be a pga tour player. She wants to be able to get her card and play on the pga full time. However she also knows that if she doesn't succeed that she can play full time on the lpga tour anyway.
If she succeeds on the pga tour in getting her tour card, I would predict that she would give it a real go, and come back to the lpga for majors and maybe a couple more.
2006-01-04 @ 13:48
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Alex said:
By taking such a non-commital stance she has satisfied nobody. It couldn't have been that hard for her to say "I'd really like to win a tournament on the LPGA this year so all my supporters will know I'm the real deal." Who could have possibly objected to that response?
*****************************

If she said "so my supporters will know that I am the real deal", that would be suggesting that she isn't the real deal until she wins.
That statement would put massive pressure on her to win on the lpga next year. Why would someone put extra pressure on themselves?

Alex you suggested that Michelle was not very intelligent. Had she made your suggested statement, that would have been unintelligent.
I don't like saying this, but her statement showed that she has more maturity than you in this instance.
Perhaps you just didn't think it through. It is so easy to make these mistakes, and that just shows even more just how clever she is, not to have been caught out more.
2006-01-04 @ 13:55
Comment from: Asia_Guy [Visitor]
There were 77 players on the PGA Tour that took home a million dollars or more in 2005.

There were 6 players on the LPGA Tour who took home more than a million dollars last year.

I predict Michelle will work at securing a PGA card in the future and only play the "Majors" on the LPGA Tour on exemption from previous wins.

The appearance fees are higher on the PGA Tour and each time she steps onto the 1st tee she would be adding to a legacy and BTW filling the gallery.

Now if that were your Goal, how would you answer the loaded question?

2006-01-04 @ 13:57
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Norman, If you find time, would you kindly list the ways that you believe are available to a girl like Michelle Wie for obtaining a PGA tour card? Please use as much detail as possible. The reason I ask for this information is that I have done a fair amount of research on the subject and it is inconceivable to me that Michelle could ever acquire a card by any conventional means. Thank you.
2006-01-04 @ 14:03
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Alex, no problem.

Firstly it has to be stated that it is extremely difficult for anybody to gain a tour card onto the pga. I think we can agree on that.

At Michelle's current golfing ability, I do not believe it would be possible for her to gain a card by any means. However I don't think she is as far off as you might.

Options to Get a PGA Tour Card:
- take sponsors exemptions, and make enough money to get your card that way. Ryan Moore qualified this year, using this method, as did Tiger Woods. I believe Michelle will attempt this method in a few years, but only if her game improves to the extent that she feels she has some chance. She would have to be making consistant cuts, before trying this way I think.

- Play the Nationwide Tour, and finish top 20 on the money list. I don't believe she would try this.

- Play q-school and finish in the top 32 to get a tour card. This appears the most likely way for Michelle to get her tour card.

In summary, I think she will try to win enough money, with 7 sponsors exemptions, but probably fail. That's at least 4 years away though, I think. She will also try q-school, and like many others probably won't succeed first time.
Whatever the method, she needs to keep working on her game if she is to get to the required standard.
2006-01-04 @ 14:42
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Of course another option is qualify for the European Tour, which is a little easier.
If she did this, and played well she could work up her ranking a bit, and try to get in this way.

In my opinion, she would only use the European Tour to gain extra experience. Perhaps play lpga 8 exemptions, play pga 7 exemptions, and play a few in Asia and Europe to fill out her season, and build some sort of a ranking.
The top 100 qualify for the USPGA, that could be some sort of a motivating factor for her to build up her ranking, whether it would be in the pga or on another tour.
2006-01-04 @ 14:48
Comment from: Jim COULTHARD [Visitor]
Alex

Michelle Wie won't earn a PGA card as girl--but she might very well do it as a woman. Method? How about Q-School?

A lot of people talk as if making the top 30 in Q-School were as hard as winning the Masters. Nearly all the top players are on the PGA already or on some other tour. If it were 2 rounds, it would certainly be easier than making the cut even in a weak PGA tournament. With 6 rounds more consistency is required, and there is more pressure. Let Wie make a few PGA cuts and win a few LPGA tournaments and she should be a good bet to make it through Q-School if she decides to go that route.
2006-01-04 @ 14:49
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Jim C, On another thread, I stated that my wife and I had been spectators at the "Q" school for the final three rounds early in December in Orlando. 32 players qualified. The tournament was played over two 7200+ yard courses. A club pro with whom I chatted while observing the play was thoroughly amazed at the way the aspiring pros were scoring over these tough layouts. He said that prior to the start of play, he thought that the medalist would be at about 10 under for the six rounds. He wasn't even close. Bill Haas, the final qualifier came in at 11 under. John B. Holmes, a recent college graduate, was the medalist at 24 under! Alex Cejka, an established pro who had won over a million dollars on 2003 and 2004 before a substandard 2005, came in as runnerup at 21 under! At least half of the qualifiers had extensive previous PGA tour experience. We watched the play over the three days of at least 50 golfers. The overall play was spectacular in every respect. As the PGA TV blurb goes, "These guys are good!" I am a fan Of Michelle, but with all due respect to her and all other female golfers, I don't think any of them would have the slightest chance of surviving the PGA "Q" school. The top 80, I believe, get a Nationwide tour card, but even that is beyond what I believe Michelle is capable of accomplishing. If she does improve, even a lot, these guys and many more will be improving also. Unless some unprecedented physical change occurs in Michelle, it just won't happen.
2006-01-04 @ 15:28
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
If you want to know what Wie's honest answer would have been, all you had to do was read between the lines. She could have said that she'd rather win an LPGA Event, and she would have upset no one. Who would that upset? Do you think the PGA players would be insulted? Therefore, since she could have offered that answer without criticism, I would infer that it is not the way she feels.

The fairly obvious conclusion is that she'd rather make a PGA cut, leaving her with two choices: lie or give that lame, Clintonesque answer.

Also, what I'm saying should not be revelatory if you understand the psychology of such a person. Wie is a modern girl who has been inculcated with the idea that fulfillment can only come through entering traditionally male domains and doing what men do. In this way of thinking, men have reserved all the best things for themselves and female arenas are worthless. Thus, on a visceral level, she doesn't FEEL that success on the LPGA Tour would be satisfying or fulfilling.

She would find making a PGA cut much more fulfilling. Everything she has said and done makes that conclusion inescapable.
2006-01-04 @ 15:30
Comment from: kaialii [Visitor]
You forgot, play the Nationwide Tour, and win 3 in a row. The "battlefield promotion". Jason Gore did this.
2006-01-04 @ 15:43
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Alex,
in 2005, 11 of the 32, 2004 q-school graduates kept their cards.

I'm guessing it probably won't be much different this year.
These guys can do well at q-school but that doesn't mean that they will succeed on the pga.

If Wie shows she can make some cuts on the pga, I think making the top 32 at q-school, shouldn't be beyond her talent, even if it takes more than one attempt.
2006-01-04 @ 15:51
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Under Par said:
Wie is a modern girl who has been inculcated with the idea that fulfillment can only come through entering traditionally male domains and doing what men do. In this way of thinking, men have reserved all the best things for themselves and female arenas are worthless.
******************************

Wie simply wants to be the best she can be and beat the best players in the world, be they men or women.
Since when has she thought the women's tournaments are worthless. She admires Annika and wants to win lpga tournaments, but she isn't held there in her ambition. She wants to be the best she can be, and that means taking it to the highest level.
2006-01-04 @ 15:54
Comment from: Ronnie [Visitor]
Paula Creamer is the one who is been forgotten about here. She is a true champion with 4 wins to 0 for Wie.

Paula has more chance of getting her pga tour card than Wie has.

Paula is simply taking a different route. Paula will overtake Annika next season as the number 1 woman, and then she will go after the men.

Paula won't be satisfied with trying to get a tour card either, she will win multiple majors on the mens tour in a few years.
2006-01-04 @ 15:57
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Ka, you're right about Jason Gore's "battlefield promotion", but Michelle would have to qualify for that tour as well. And winning three times in one season on the Nationwide is about as difficult as it gets. That "battle promotion" is really rare.
2006-01-04 @ 16:03
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Alex,
I agree, the Nationwide option of winning 3 times is about the hardest way to qualify.

By the way, if Wie wins the Sony Open, how long of a tour exemption does she get? She is 500-1 and it has received some bets.

Might as well be 5000-1 IMO.
2006-01-04 @ 16:27
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Under Par, Just when I thought we had seen it all, what with alan, Paul W and the rest, a "new kid on the block" has entered the picture. His handle is "Ronnie", but his heroine is Paula Creamer. Maybe he's had a few too many hits on the bong, but if you haven't read his post, get ready for a lot of laughs.
2006-01-04 @ 17:43
Comment from: Jim COULTHARD [Visitor]
Prediction for the Sony.

At the Sony this year, Michelle Wie will outperform 4 out of 5 Q-School graduates. I know it is just about Wie's home course, but if these guys are so much better than Michelle they should be able to do better than that. Anyone willing to predict the Q-School grads will do better than I have said?
2006-01-04 @ 18:00
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Comment from: kaialii [Visitor]
You forgot, play the Nationwide Tour, and win 3 in a row. The "battlefield promotion". Jason Gore did this.

If Wie ever wins three in a row on the Nationwide Tour, I'll kiss Norman's chair-shaped butt in front of Harrods window.
2006-01-04 @ 18:04
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Comment from: Ronnie [Visitor]
Paula Creamer is the one who is been forgotten about here. She is a true champion with 4 wins to 0 for Wie.

Paula has more chance of getting her pga tour card than Wie has.

Paula is simply taking a different route. Paula will overtake Annika next season as the number 1 woman, and then she will go after the men.

Paula won't be satisfied with trying to get a tour card either, she will win multiple majors on the mens tour in a few years.

Ronnie, I really am not sure if you're joking. Anyway, don't bet the house on any of your predictions. Creamer won't overtake Sorenstam next season (I assume you mean the upcoming one), and her chances of getting a PGA Tour card are between slim and none . . . and slim just left town.
2006-01-04 @ 18:09
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Alex,

I just saw Ronnie's musings. I think he needs to have his medication adjusted.
2006-01-04 @ 18:11
Comment from: jay [Visitor]
I am pretty sure wie will outdrive Luke Donald,Chris Dimarco and Jim Furyk by at least 10 yards when she reaches 20. Now Earning card through Q school might not be as impossible as a lot of people think. Even Johnny Miller said wie has more shots than a lot of pga players. what wie needs is more distance and experience and I think she will add a lot of both when she reaches 20 and Earning tour card might not be as difficult task as people think.
2006-01-04 @ 18:20
Comment from: Ronnie [Visitor]
Alex and Under Par. How dare you insult my opinions.
I'm guessing you are probably just Wie-addicts and think nobody can challenge your girl.

Well you are wrong, Paula won 4 times last season and she had lots of great finishes. She practically won the Solheim Cup on her own.

Annika might be number 1 now, but she is 35 and Paula is only 19. If Paula doesn't overtake Annika next year, she definetely will the following year.

Paula isn't silly like Wie trying to play the men when she can't even beat the women. Paula will first become the dominant number 1 on the lpga, then she will join the pga, and work her way up through that tour as well. If you had the opportunity to watch Paula hit the golf ball, you would know just how good she is.
2006-01-04 @ 18:35
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Under Par, we've seen Ronnie, now jay has joined the fray. Check out his latest bit of wizardry. Maybe some aliens ARE putting something in the water. I'll tell you though, this AOL is a bargain. Where else could one get this kind of entertainment at such a reasonable price?
2006-01-04 @ 18:35
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Jay,
Donald drives the ball 284 yards.
DiMarco 281 yards.
Furyk 280 yards.

So you think she will be driving it over 290 yards. I think that is asking alot.

She is currently around 270 yards.
2006-01-04 @ 18:49
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Norman,

In a way you just inadvertantly buttressed our point about the hype. As you said, Wie drives it about 270, yet, I can't tell you how many times I've heard gushing journalists say she hits it 300. Of course, it makes for titillating prose; I mean, you've got the 3 followed by the two zeros -- "270" just doesn't have the same ring, know what I mean? I also heard Wie-wie say on a late night talk show that she hits it 300 yards; that's the marketing I was telling you about.

Ronnie, I dislike Wie, actually. However, I "insult" your opinions, as you put it, because they're utterly ridiculous.

I know what kind of fellow you are, though. You were never much of an athlete, so you lack the ability to assess these things properly, which can cause you to view someone like Creamer and think she is somehow unique in her shotmaking ability.

By the way, not all opinions are deserving of respect. Some are right, some are wrong, some are stupid. If you don't understand the profound difference between male and female athletes, I'll leave the category in which yours belong to the imagination.
2006-01-04 @ 19:10
Comment from: Jim COULTHARD [Visitor]
Another guy last year did the Creamer on the PGA thing that Ronnie is doing. He admitted he wasn't serious. Therre is no to assume Ronnie is any more serious than that guy was. Obviously the Wie critics are not biting this time, however.

Driving distance is like the speed of a tennis player's serve. They often talk about the speed of a tnnis player's fastest serve, why can't we talk about a golfer's longest drive. And just like tennis, a golfer may often take a little off in order to get greater accuracy. Just be careful to compare best with bestm average with average or whatever.

2006-01-04 @ 19:51
Comment from: alan [Visitor]
You left out all the Ahh's, Ummm's and other stuttering from Wie's actual quote. Alan M
2006-01-04 @ 19:56
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Jim,

I understand what you're saying, but as a tennis pro I can tell you that a fastest serve and a longest drive are not analogous in the way some may assume.

A fastest serve is always indicative of a player's capacity whereas a longest drive is never. This is because conditions on a tennis court are relatively uniform and thus have a negligible bearing on the speed of the ball.

Golf is a different matter altogether (even if you only count the drives on the measuring holes) because conditions can vary so greatly.
2006-01-04 @ 20:21
Comment from: jay [Visitor]
Right now wie's cary distance is about 265 ( she can stretch it to 280 when she needs) and she said her goal is to carry the ball at least 285 in next 3 years and I think that's resonable goal because she has a lot of room to improve in her body. That's why I predicted she will outdrive all three of them by at least 10 yards when she reaches age 20. All three carry about 270 to 275.

BTW, Ronnie. I saw creamer hit the ball and that's why I was never impressed with her game. Even 5 foot 1 inch Ai Miyazato was outdriving creamer and Ai finished dead last at japanese men's tour.
2006-01-04 @ 20:23
Comment from: extremely under par [Visitor]
Gentlemen Ronnie, my dear fellow, is absolutely right. Paula Creamer will wipe the PGA clean. She is only too modest to display her true gofing talents. Under Par, a myopic misogynist, and Alex, his snuffling underling, couldn't possibly begin to comprehend the true scope of the genius embodied, which is non other than Miss Creamer herself. Her drives are long and straight often exceeding 300 yards and her iron shots, peerless. It is only her grace and genuine concern for others including our dear little Under Par et al. that she has not unleashed her true talent as of yet. Why? you may ask. It is solely because of her concerns for the welfares of male chauvinists like yourselves: namely to avoid sudden illness due to uncontrollable seizure , mouth foaming and God forbid heart attacks in seeing her wipe the whole of PGA tour with her amzing golf talents. Consider yourselves to be warned, for Miss creamer will show her true talents in 2006 by swweping the Grad Slam of Golf, Pga and LPGA.
2006-01-04 @ 21:49
Comment from: Jim COULTHARD [Visitor]
Alex

Assume Michelle does Q-School when she is 18 in 2007. I would guess that she would be seeded into the final. Assume the same courses and the same weather. -11 made it in 2007. Top 30 and ties made 32. In 2 years -12 is a good bet to make the top 30 and ties. That is 2 under per round. In two years there is hardly likely to be a significant change in the level of play at Q-School. If Wie improves, she will face guys at most a bit tougher than those in 2005. As far as top 80 goes, she around that level on the PGA now--and those guys are a lot better than your Q-schoolers.
2006-01-04 @ 22:18
Comment from: Jim COULTHARD [Visitor]
extremely under par

You forgot to mention that Paula Creamer will also sweep the gand slams of tennis
both male and female. That will really annoy under par.
2006-01-04 @ 22:21
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Extremely Under Par,

You know, I've seen the light! You're right, once Creamer unleashes the tigress within she'll really be a "creamer." But I believe even you underestimate her immense capacity.

I expect that by the time she brings all the men on the PGA Tour to tears she'll be driving the ball 385 yards with a 43 inch, steel-shafted driver. I estimate that she will lead the tour in accuracy with 98.2% of fairways hit and that her GIR stat will be 99.3%. I won't mention scrambling because she won't have to scramble, but her putting average will be 1.32.

Moreover, I believe that upon conquering the PGA, she will find winning every start boring and will seek a new challenge. Thus, I predict that she will join the NBA, performing feats and setting records that'll make Michael Jordan look like a grammar school pick-up game scrub.

I also expect her to win a Nobel Prize in nuclear physics.

Where she goes from there, no one knows. The sky is the limit!!
2006-01-04 @ 22:25
Comment from: Jim COULTHARD [Visitor]
Under par

What do you mean a puttin average of 1.32? It will be 0.00. She will hole all of her approach shots.
2006-01-04 @ 22:32
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Now, Jim, let's not be ridiculous!
2006-01-04 @ 22:56
Comment from: Asia_Guy [Visitor]
To clear up any confusion with what it takes to earn a PGA Tour card here are the five ways:

1. Finish within the top 30 and ties at the annual Qualifying Tournament.

2. Win a co-sponsored or approved PGA TOUR event.

3. Finish among the top 150 players on the official money list in a year (through sponsor exemptions, foreign exemptions, open qualifying or section qualifying, etc.)

4. Win during the course of a PGA TOUR season an amount of official money (by playing in PGA TOUR events through sponsor exemptions, foreign exemptions, open qualifying or section qualifying, etc.) equal to the amount won in the preceding year by the 150th finisher on the official money list.

5. Finish in the top 20 on the official Nationwide Tour money list.

Number four will be Michelle's ticket to a PGA card. For 2005 the 150th golfer on the list had $485,343 in earnings. I guarantee you she is a better golfer than this guy now. He played 20 events and was cut 10 times. One top ten and no wins.

Paula Creamer is a great ball striker, but does not have all the shots yet in her game Michelle does. When the wind is up Paula is down. When the weather is good she is one of the most accurate young golfers I've seen with mid and short irons.

2006-01-05 @ 03:12
Comment from: Foot Wedge [Visitor]
The question of LPGA vs PGA is not relevant. Michelle Wie has already said that her ultimate goal in golf is to play in the Masters. Her best shot at qualifying for the Masters would have been to continue playing in the US Amateur Public Links. Since she gave up that opportunity when she turned pro, I can only conclude that 1) $$ are more important to her or 2) she thinks she can qualify for the Masters on the PGA tour. Since #2 is highly unlikely even to the most diehard Wie fan, that tells me that $$ were the main goal all along.
2006-01-05 @ 03:19
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Asia,

There's no way Wie is even as good as the 150th ranked guy. You don't understand the difference between the two tours.
2006-01-05 @ 03:43
Comment from: Asia_Guy [Visitor]
Sony Open Hawaii 2005

Michelle Wie +9

Thomas Levet +14 (150th 2005 PGA Money List)

She already beat this guy once by five strokes in two rounds and scored better than a few more members of the top 150 list at the same event, Double Par.

She also tied Nick Price (125th 2005 PGA Money list)and beat a few others on the list at the John Deere.

This girl does have game.

I understand statistics DP and her statistics for PGA events are not bad when you look at the guys placing behind her. Hell David Duval could't put two rounds together to beat her.

The Sony will be her breakout event where she will make the cut for the following reasons:

Home course advantage. She has a bunch of rounds on this course.

Nike Techs have spent enough time with her to get her clubs right. Loft, lie, angle and swing weight set to fit her swing. She couldn't take advantage of this assistance as an Amateur.

David Ledbetter is on her team.

Her new caddy has watched her hit enough balls to help her pull the right club, not the case at the Casio.

And to top it all off she has already taken her SATs. Now that alone has got to be what puts her over the cut line.

Mahalo Bro










2006-01-05 @ 04:39
Comment from: Asia_Guy [Visitor]
OK before you say it DP, Duval was a poor choice for the comparison.

He couldn't beat his mom last year.
2006-01-05 @ 04:42
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Asia,

"Beating" these guys over two rounds proves nothing because everyone has bad tournaments. You must know that.

Secondly, you have to be top 125 on the money list to retain your card
2006-01-05 @ 06:07
Comment from: Alan [Visitor]
Mark, Why did you edit out all the Ahhh's, Ummm's and other stuttering that Wie is famous for? Alan M
2006-01-05 @ 06:51
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Extremely Under Par, may I make a suggestion? Change your handle to "Extremely Under-Educated." If your post was meant to be satire, I'd make a further suggestion: Don't quit your day job, assuming you have one. As it is more than likely that you don't have a job, don't apply anywhere where proper grammar, punctuation and spelling are prerequisites, such a proofreader at a publishing house or newspaper.
2006-01-05 @ 09:30
Comment from: Paul W [Visitor]
Interesting, but cryptic, comments from Appleby in:

http://www.golf365.com/Story_Page/0,13810,3123_929528_1,00.html

His main message is that Wie shouldn't overdo the PGA exemptions till she earns it, which I tend to agree with. However, he makes the following comments at the end of the article:


******

"She will be part of history, but as yet she just hasn't been part of it at all as yet.

"And that's what is scary - someone that good hasn't played any role in golf at all.

Now in the next 15, 20 years, she could be the biggest and best player ever. It would be quite unique. I guess Tiger has had the claim for a few years now. "

***

Better than Tiger? A bit over the top.
2006-01-05 @ 09:58
Comment from: extremely under par [Visitor]
Little Alex Tsk, tsk. Pray tell, resorting to name calling, are you? How seemingly ungentlemanly. Little Alex, I have lost my respect for you, assuming I had any to begin with.
2006-01-05 @ 10:16
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Extremely Under Par, check you reading glasses. Where did I call you a name?
2006-01-05 @ 10:43
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Maybe Appleby is as stupid as Sorenstam-will-finish-20th-in-the-Colonial Mickelson.
2006-01-05 @ 11:49
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Under Par, Probably Stu and Phil were just trying to make some points with the PC crowd. They could try a little moderation, though. There might just be another explanation. An old, inveterate horseplayer pal of mind insists that the very worst information a man can get on any given race is from a conversation in the jockeys' dressing room. Maybe, too close to the forest...?
2006-01-05 @ 12:28
Comment from: Asia_Guy [Visitor]
DP read my post again about how to qualify for the PGA Tour. That is straight from the PGA and the first 150 qualify for a card on the money list.

Now that other little tour, the LPGA is the one that only the top 125 obtain a LPGA card.

Yep DP, she beat these here professional golfers in the field like a step-child in yer doublewide. A fifteen year old high school gal whooped em. Can you just imagine how humbled they were?

She also beat Paula Creamer five out of the eight times she played against her in 2005. The other three times Michelle was having "bad tournaments" according to you.

Once she makes a PGA cut and gains confidence, look out world of golf.

This young lady brings some game.






2006-01-05 @ 13:28
Comment from: Jim COULTHARD [Visitor]
Least difficult route to the PGA--Q school, particularly if seeded to final.

Next least difficult. Top 20 Nationwide, but Wie willnot go this route.

The Tiger route. Matching Top 125 money. This is much more difficult than Q School--but the Sony Open does give Wie a chance here. In a couple of years if she has a super week on her home course, it could set her up for the year.
2006-01-05 @ 13:52
Comment from: Asia_Guy [Visitor]
Appleby provided a more telling statement DP in the same interview that supports my claim she beat the professionals:

"And she is good. She's not a wealthy person who happened to pull some strings. I mean, this girl can flat out play. You know, I barely beat her by a shot, I think, the last time I played there."

He was lucky to "beat" her by a shot. He may not be so lucky in 2006.
2006-01-05 @ 14:04
Comment from: Asia_Guy [Visitor]
Jim,

It is the top 150 on the PGA money list who earn a tour card for the next season.

The 125 you're quoting is for the LPGA tour.
2006-01-05 @ 14:12
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Asia-guy, it is the top 125 that make it to the pga tour as well.

Please give a link of where you are getting this top 150 information from, because it is wrong.
2006-01-05 @ 14:23
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Under Par said:
In a way you just inadvertantly buttressed our point about the hype. As you said, Wie drives it about 270, yet, I can't tell you how many times I've heard gushing journalists say she hits it 300.
I also heard Wie-wie say on a late night talk show that she hits it 300 yards; that's the marketing I was telling you about.
******************

Under Par, Wie does indeed drive the ball 300 yards. She drives it that far quite a bit. In the Sony she drove it 317 yards on one hole and over 300 for 2 other holes, so she does drive it that far.
However her average is about 270 yards, and that is what counts in my opinion. But to say she drives it 300 yards is not a lie.

In 2004, she averaged about 275 yards.
In 2005, she averaged about 270 yards.

That's based over about 6 events in each year on the lpga.
2006-01-05 @ 14:29
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Asia-Guy said:
2. Win a co-sponsored or approved PGA TOUR event.
*******************************

Everyone seems to be forgetting about this option. Wonder why!!!!
2006-01-05 @ 14:34
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Norman,

I sort of assumed that would be the spin. It may be true that it's not a lie, but it is deceitful. It's designed to give people the wrong impression.
2006-01-05 @ 14:36
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Foot Wedge said:
Her best shot at qualifying for the Masters would have been to continue playing in the US Amateur Public Links. Since she gave up that opportunity when she turned pro, I can only conclude that 1) $$ are more important to her or 2) she thinks she can qualify for the Masters on the PGA tour. Since #2 is highly unlikely even to the most diehard Wie fan, that tells me that $$ were the main goal all along.
********************************

What makes you think the US Publinx is so easy. Even a great golfer could get knocked out early by someone having a great or fluky day.
Also no golfer can be guaranteed to turn it the form every single time, so I didn't think Publinx qualifying was that likely anyway.
PGA is actually a better route to go, because she has about 20 years at least to do it.
2006-01-05 @ 14:37
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Under Par said:
There's no way Wie is even as good as the 150th ranked guy. You don't understand the difference between the two tours.
**************************

I think Wie's performances thus far suggests that she is somewhere around that standard.

It cannot be said for sure, until she would have many more events, but the standard mentioned of 10 cuts from 20, I don't think that will be beyond Wie in a few years.
2006-01-05 @ 14:39
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Under Par, This thread is getting like "The Night of the Living Dead"! They're everywhere! And they're on the march! Maybe we should reconnoiter and regroup after the Sony.
2006-01-05 @ 14:51
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Appleby's statement:

"You know, I barely beat her by a shot, I think, the last time I played there."

This is important for Wie critics.
Appleby finished 1 shot ahead of Wie.
Appleby considers this to be beating Michelle Wie.

By that reckoning, Michelle BEAT the players that she finished ahead of. It is nice to have a pga tour, back up this line of thinking.
The anti-Wie brigade like to think that finishing ahead of someone in a tournament isn't beating them unless you have won the tournament.
2006-01-05 @ 14:55
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Alex, that may be a good idea.

There's a great saying, "Everyone rises to the level of his own incompetence."

In coming years Michelle Wie may come to grasp its true meaning.
2006-01-05 @ 15:21
Comment from: stone [Visitor]
Asia Guy you need to get out of the sun bra, it's frying your brain. I know Michelle is a local island girl, but your blind worship is a little frightening. You are right about one thing Michelle does have serious game, she is an incredible talent, but she has yet to win on the LPGA tour or make a cut on the PGA tour. That includes two attempts on her home course once missing by 7 strokes in the wind no less. It would seem that Michelle not Paula needs help with her wind game. Listen I don't want to disrespect Michelle in any way as I have said she is going to be a great player and winner on the LPGA tour one day, maybe even this year, but I reserve the right to call bullshit on anybody who thinks she will ever be a factor on the PGA tour, let alone win. She may make a cut one of these days, but earning and keeping her tourcard are entirely different stories. So now that Michelle has the best equipment, coaches, and caddy as well as home course advantage what will be your excuse whe she fails to make the cut this time. My guess would be age followed by wind and conditions followed by she didn't feel like it. I like Michelle, but I feel sorry for her when fans such as yourself have put unrealistic and unfair expectations upon her. Let her grow up and let her game mature. She will probably win plenty in due time on the women's tour and that might just have to be good enough for you.
2006-01-05 @ 15:49
Comment from: Ronnie [Visitor]
People like to exagerate other peoples comments on this board.

Nobody said that Paula Creamer will win everything on the pga next year.

Here is what will happen:
- Paula will be a serious threat to Annika for number 1, next season on the lpga but will probably come up short.
- The following season Paula will be number 1 on the lpga.
- Then for 2008, Paula will be dominant.
- In 2009, Paula will go for the Grand Slam on the lpga, and will win at least 3 of them, if not actually achieve it.
- In 2010, Paula will tackle the men on the pga. Wie will already have made a some cuts, at that stage so it won't be as big news as otherwise.
- Creamer will take her sponsors exemptions and find her footing on the pga.
- then in 2011, at 25 years old, Creamer will take 7 sponsors exemptions on the pga and win enough money to gain her tour card for the following season.
- in 2012 Creamer will win, on the pga tour and build up her world ranking.
- in 2013 or 2014, Creamer will qualify for some majors.
- over the next couple of years after that, by the time Creamer is 30, she will win a mens major, and will have a few pga titles as well.
2006-01-05 @ 16:24
Comment from: Jim COULTHARD [Visitor]
STONE

Exactly let Michelle Wie grow up. Let her finish high school. People also need to recognize that earning and keeping a PGA card are a lot easier than breaking into the Big Five that dominate the tour. It sounds as if making cuts more than half the time is about the level needed to earn and to keep a card. That does not sound impossible for Wie in a few years. And when she is better, a great week on her home course might give her a win. Very few players ever win unless they do have a great week.
2006-01-05 @ 16:25
Comment from: Ronnie [Visitor]
The big thing that should be noted, is that by the time Creamer takes on the men, she will be the dominant female.
She will have shown that she can beat all the woman on the lpga before taking on the men.
2006-01-05 @ 16:27
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Well said Jim.

I think if Wie gets a tour card, she has a good chance of keeping it.

It will be difficult to get one in the first place, but I think that if she is dedicated, she can do it, whether by the q-school or sponsors exemptions route.
2006-01-05 @ 16:31
Comment from: Paul W [Visitor]
Ronnie,

There are some people who post on this board who like to make fun of everybody, which is pretty dumb. Best thing to do is ignore them.

However, you are the only person I have ever seen talk about Paula playing against the men. She's a great talent and may one day challenge Annika for #1 on the LPGA. But, her strength is in putting and short/medium irons. She was something like 65th in driving distance in the LPGA last year. She simply doesn't play the type of game that would suit her to the men's game, and I don't think it's a goal of her's. She may try a game at some point, but unless she starts sprinkling steroids in her breakfast cereal, she doesn't have the strength to succeed.
2006-01-05 @ 16:58
Comment from: Jim COULTHARD [Visitor]
Some of us did not believe Ronnie was serious when he predicted multiple men's Majors for Creamer. So we just went along with the game.
2006-01-05 @ 17:54
Comment from: Paul W [Visitor]
Sometimes it's hard to tell
2006-01-05 @ 18:21
Comment from: jay [Visitor]
Talk about distance hype. Creamer listed her driving distance as 265 yards.( just look at What's in your bag section of golf digest). But her avg driving distance was 248 yards and also she couldn't even outdrive wie's 3 wood when they were paired together. It looks like creamer is exaggerating her driving distance.
2006-01-05 @ 18:31
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Ronnie,

Wow, I'm impressed with your predictions; you have Creamer's career laid out through 2016.

Now, since I don't run into a rare individual such as yourself -- a man who possesses the gift of prophesy -- very often, I'd like to take this opportunity to avail myself of your prescience. Please aid my endeavours.

I'd like to know what stocks will rise in value twenty-fold or more during the next two years. I'm not asking a lot; it's not as if I want information about events a decade hence. Two years will suffice.

Also, if you can tell me about this week's horse races, I'd appreciate that also.
2006-01-05 @ 20:06
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Jay,

Yes, the women's distances are hyped in general. I don't know if you noticed this, but when I used to watch women's golf I made an observation. While they would flash the distance of every drive on the screen during the men's telecasts, they would never do so with the women. Of course, I realized that this was for marketing reasons. They realized that if the average person saw that most of the drives were only in the 240s, it would have a negative effect of viewership.

This was a few years ago, so I understand it may be a bit different now. With some longer hitting women, such as Sorenstam and Wie, they may be more inclined to sometimes provide such information.
2006-01-05 @ 20:10
Comment from: stone [Visitor]
Jay I noticed that too in the what's my bag section of golf digest online. Those numbers are supposed to be carry distances. Paula carries her driver 265 as many times as Michelle carries her driver 300---which is to say hardly ever. the most amazing thing I saw on that sight was the section on Hilary Lunke the 2003 Women's US Open champion. Her club head speed is 85 miles per hour with her driver and she carries her 8-iron like 120 yards. In my mind this ends the debate about the greatest feat by a female golfer. How you can win a major with the club head speed of your average senior citizen is beyond me.
2006-01-05 @ 21:13
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Stone,

I was happy to see Lunke win because she seems like a nice gal -- she seems like she's all woman, too. Having said that, doesn't that victory tell you something about the level of the LPGA?

And how about the choke-fest at last year's US Women's Open? What a comedy of errors. One of the leaders (was it Ochoa?) actually hit her tee shot so fat that she dumped it into a part of a hazard that shouldn't have been in play. And she did this with a driver!
2006-01-05 @ 22:46
Comment from: Foot Wedge [Visitor]
Norman said:

What makes you think the US Publinx is so easy. Even a great golfer could get knocked out early by someone having a great or fluky day.
Also no golfer can be guaranteed to turn it the form every single time, so I didn't think Publinx qualifying was that likely anyway.
PGA is actually a better route to go, because she has about 20 years at least to do it.
**************************************

Norman.....I never said that the Public Links would be an easy way for her to qualify for the Masters, I said I thought it was her best opportunity. But since you disagree and think the PGA tour is her best chance, then by which method do you think she will have the best chance to qualify in 20 years, as you say? Top 8 in the US Open? Top 4 in the British Open? Top 4 in the PGA Championship? Top 40 on the money list?

2006-01-06 @ 01:30
Comment from: Asia_Guy [Visitor]
Norman and the rest of you who think that only 125 get a PGA card I must say that is Bovine Defecation. 150 tour cards are distributed to the top money winners each year. Extracting the foreign players who are on another tour.

Now you all open up the door on yer doublewide and I will explain the process. 150 tour cards are issued, yet only the top 125 receive "exempt" status for the next year. The other 25 recieve "conditional" status on the tour.

Exempt players can enter the maximum number of regular tour events (25) and based on their standing may qualify for the money padding invitation only events at the end of the year.

Conditional players may play 12 to 15 select regular tour events (more if they finish high in the order) and have the option of playing in the final round of "Q" school in an attempt to gain PGA tour "exempt" status. No sectional qualifiers for them.

The next 50 players on the money list (151 to 201) gain exempt status on the Nationwide tour.

The LPGA has a very similiar process in use.
2006-01-06 @ 04:48
Comment from: Asia_Guy [Visitor]
For stoned! You must have me confused with Ronnie. I have never predicted anything just reviewed the statistics and results.

Since you have unfairly associated me to Paula's biggest groupie Ronnie, I will make some Wie predictions stoned, of course only after long consultations with my astrologer:

Miss Wie will make the cut at the Sony based on the alignment of the stars and the 64 she carded last week from the Championship Tees.

Miss Wie will never take a drop without a rules official by her side.

Miss Wie will never live in a doublewide mobile home.

Miss Wie will not win the title at the Sony Open.

So what do you think my percentages will be stoned?



2006-01-06 @ 05:07
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Under Par said:
And how about the choke-fest at last year's US Women's Open? What a comedy of errors.
*****************************

Very similar to the mens US Open, wasn't it.
2006-01-06 @ 09:46
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Foot Wedge said:
But since you disagree and think the PGA tour is her best chance, then by which method do you think she will have the best chance to qualify in 20 years, as you say? Top 8 in the US Open? Top 4 in the British Open? Top 4 in the PGA Championship? Top 40 on the money list?
*****************************

Probably top 40 on the money list.
2006-01-06 @ 09:50
Comment from: jay [Visitor]
Stone. There is nothing wrong to say creamer doesn't play well in the winds. Knock down shot is necessity in windy condition and creamer doesn't have knock down shot. That's why she never played well in windy condition.
2006-01-06 @ 10:00
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Norman,

Not at all like the men's Open. If you watched it objectively, you saw that the women looked like rank amateurs. I have never seen a man dump a tee shot hit with a driver into the water a mere 100 yards in front of him.
2006-01-06 @ 10:28
Comment from: June [Visitor]
Again, to all the naysayers, if this is 16 years old boy we are talking about, will you still insist that he won't have a chance in hell to make into PGA in the future when he missed the PGA cut by 1 shot at 14 years old or 2 shot at 15 years old?

I just don't buy the argument that because she is a girl she won't have a chance to make it even if she came so close at that early ages.

I don't even think this denial is due to sexism. It's because of close-mindness or pure and simple ignorance.

If she is missing the cut continuously like before by 26 years old, then I am on the wagon saying "Michelle, stick to the women's game". BUT, BUTuntil that time come, I am clearly on her side.

"You go, girl. Pursue your dream and don't pay any attention to those naysayers".
2006-01-06 @ 11:04
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Under Par,
I don't know of anyone who is unwilling to admit that the lpga is of a much lower standard than the pga.

However in the US Open, alot of men were making multiple ridiculous shots, given their talent.

Only Tiger and Michael Campbell
performed properly for top class players.
2006-01-06 @ 11:07
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Asia--Guy, Just what are the purposes of your several references to "double-wide mobile homes"? Is it some sort of envy since yours might be only a"single-wide"? If it is, as I believe, a feeble attempt at condescension, you should try some other form of expression. On a golf discussion board condescension is a non sequitur. Some of the postings on this blog are becoming as imbecilic as those found on the kooky, left-wing political sites.
2006-01-06 @ 11:09
Comment from: stone [Visitor]
100% correct on those lame predictions Asia Guy, but I couldn't help notice that you did not predict she would make the cut on this post that, might have affected your percentage a little bit. I like your girl Michelle, but you and the rest of her disciples take it too far when you imply that she is a better golfer than Stuart Appleby. That's 6-time PGA tour winner and two time defending Mercedes Champion Stuart Appleby. Getting within a stroke of him one weekend is impressive I know I couldn't do it, but lets get real. Michelle Wie is good, real good just stop cramming her down everyone's throat. Just wondering what's the deal with you and trailers/doublwides you seem to have a real appreciation for them. It's ok Asia Guy nobody will judge you if you live in one. I seem to recall a lot of trailer homes on the drive from the airport in Maui to the Four Seasons. Give me you address or liscence plate number and I will look you up next time I'm on vacation.
2006-01-06 @ 11:26
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
June,

Firstly, the fact the you would draw an equivalency between 16-year-olds of opposites sexes tells me that you know little about reality. You could be virtually sure in such a situation that the boy had not reached his potential, whereas the same could not be said of the girl.

If you see a 16-year-old boy and 16-year-old girl who can both run the mile in 4:30, would you assume that she would stand as great a chance of improving her time as he? If you would, you lack knowledge and wisdom.

This is because the women's world record for the mile is 4:13 and change, whereas the men's is 3:41. Thus, such a girl would most likely be hard pressed to register any improvement, while such a boy would be able to surpass the 4:13 mark as long as he continued to train (lots of guys have). That's a lesson in reality 101.

Also, I'm sure Michelle Wie will be very encouraged when she next visits this board and sees your comments.
2006-01-06 @ 11:35
Comment from: stone [Visitor]
June you raise a valid point. Sexism is certainly a factor, maybe ignorance plays a small role, but I believe it is because it has never been done before no disrespect to the babe. People including myself have a hard time imagining a women, let alone a teenage girl competing at the highest levels of any sport. It has never really happened and it is hard to think that a spindly girl from Hawaii with a resume deviod of wins(quality wins) is going to be the chosen one. Your question raises what I think is the more interesting argument and that is not whether or not she will make a cut(I think she eventually will and a great accomplishment), but whether or not she will truly compete on the PGA tour that is earn a card, retain the card, make numerous cuts, get top 20's, top 10's and even challenge for titles. My opinion is that she will not be able to do these things, but I applaud her for trying. I would love to be proved wrong, but nothing about her previous history and results suggests that she is capable of doing much more then possibly making a cut on her home course or at a third teir event and that does not make a PGA career. Why don't we see if she can win on the LPGA tour first before people like Asia Guy start saying she is already as good or better then the 150th and 125th ranked men in the world(Thomas Levet and Nick Price) or as he suggested Stuart Appleby who finished the year ranked 23rd.
2006-01-06 @ 11:45
Comment from: extremely under par [Visitor]
Now, allow me to grace this board with prescient comentaries. I go on record as saying that Michelle Wie will make the cut in a PGA tournament and she will win her first LPGA tournament in 2006. Stone better Keep bashing Wie while she/he has her/his(it, henceforth) chance, for it is on a borrowed time. Perhaps, our little Alex could help "it" out with temporary lodging in his double wide. Ahem. As for our good fellow, Ronnie, you are absolutely right in your predictions for Miss Creamer. I couldn't have said it better. Ronnie, I wonder if you would be good enough to tell me whether GOogle is a sell at the moment?
2006-01-06 @ 12:13
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Sone said:
I like your girl Michelle, but you and the rest of her disciples take it too far when you imply that she is a better golfer than Stuart Appleby. That's 6-time PGA tour winner and two time defending Mercedes Champion Stuart Appleby (who finished the year ranked 23rd)
****************************

Did someone actually say that she is better than Stuart Appleby?
I certainly wouldn't concur with those sentiments.

She beat Adam Scott, who was ranked number 7 quite recently. She actually beat him by 3 shots I think.
That does not mean that she is a better player than him. It simply means she played better than him on that particular day.

She would need to play quite a number of tournaments on the pga, before any of us could say accurately just where her level is at.

From her limited few events, I would say that she has tonnes of potential. It makes it even harder to do well, when you play scattered events.
2006-01-06 @ 12:33
Comment from: EJ Brown [Visitor]
Give the kid a break!! She's only 16 for gosh sakes!! At least she's articulate enough to respond........what were you doing when you were 16???
2006-01-06 @ 12:35
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Under Par said:
June,
Firstly, the fact the you would draw an equivalency between 16-year-olds of opposites sexes tells me that you know little about reality. You could be virtually sure in such a situation that the boy had not reached his potential, whereas the same could not be said of the girl.
*******************************

You leave out a very important word there "physical" potential.
Neither the boy or the girl would have reached their golfing skills potential.
If it was a sport such as athletics, as you mention, the boys potential for physical improvement means that he has the potential to improve much more than the girl.
In the case of golf, the boy has more potential to improve physically, which amounts for a small part of the equation. Both the boy and the girl, have the potential to improve their golfing skills.
2006-01-06 @ 12:37
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Extremely Under Educated, Where have you been? I heard that you had OD'd on stupid pills! I'll tell you, you and Asia--Guy are about as sharp as two bowling balls. But I'll also bet that your mothers think you both are a couple of wits. Or maybe it's "half"wits.
2006-01-06 @ 12:44
Comment from: Jim COULTHARD [Visitor]
A teenage girl has already competed near the highest level of a sport. Judit Polgar in chess--and she made a point of competing against the best, avoiding competition restricted to females--not learning to win by playing weak competition.

It does seem unlikely that a woman could compete with men at the top level of golf--but let's look at the situation. Wie did barely miss the cur at the John Deere, which is not her home course. She apparently has the best form driving that anyone has. Her distance is already pretty much on a par with the shortest guys on the PGA. She plans to try to add 10 to 20 yards--but even if that is overly optomistic she will be in the mix with the short guys on the tour.

The weakest part of her game seems to be her putting, and things do seem to fall apart for her when she is about to make a cut. Neither of these problems seems to have much to do with gender, and they are the type of thing should be correctable--particularly with top professional help, and more time when she finishes school.





2006-01-06 @ 12:46
Comment from: stone [Visitor]
Jim I am going to pretend you didn't insert a chess reference into this conversation. I only said that I find it hard to imagine her competing to win tournaments at the highest level of men's golf extremely under par. How exactly is that Wie bashing? I am impressed by her skill and poise as anyone and rightfully so, she is a great talent. Based on the current data I'm just not ready to punch her card on the PGA Tour or even as the future greatest female player of all time. I find these type predictions and accolades to be silly and premature that's all. If I'm bashing anybody it's some of Michelle's overly rabid fans who spring into attack mode anytime somebody questions Michelle's ability to win at any level. You and I are not that far off in our predictions for Michelle's future. I believe that Michelle will make a cut in a men's event provided she keeps playing in them and I think it is also possible that she could win a LPGA event this year. She just better have a really big lead going into the final day...cough, cough.
2006-01-06 @ 13:23
Comment from: Asia_Guy [Visitor]
Good points Jim and Norman. I looked around Phuket today on the way to the course Alex and couldn't find one singlewide mobile home with wheels.

I just assumed (maybe mistakenly) followers of Women's golf on the mainland would also be NASCAR fans. I think Ronnie may have confused me.

Yes I was a resident of Hawaii for a few years, living at the Ilikai before hauling anchor and sailing further west.

You are exactly correct on one point though; I do live in a mobile home of sorts. Now where did I put those damn wheels?
2006-01-06 @ 13:27
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Stone said:
She just better have a really big lead going into the final day...cough, cough.
***********************************

Actually it would be easier if she was a shot behind coming close to the end, that would mean less pressure, and perhaps the leader could falter, as happens regualarly on all the major tours.
2006-01-06 @ 13:38
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Jim Coulthard said:
She plans to try to add 10 to 20 yards--but even if that is overly optomistic she will be in the mix with the short guys on the tour.
*******************************

Given that Tiger added 15 yards, this season, that would seem to make it a possiblity.
Although sorry, I had forgotton, men natually get much stronger between the ages of 28 and 29, wheras women hit their peaks at 16. Under Par could have told me that.
2006-01-06 @ 13:45
Comment from: Ronnie [Visitor]
People here have been saying that my predictions are silly.

I predicted that Paula would gain her pga tour card in 2011. I didn't say that she had everything right now to get her tour card.

I said that she is taking a different route to Wie. She has the goal of becoming the number 1 woman before she starts playing the men.
Is that not a better way to do it. She will first become the number 1 woman, and then she will rightly be able to challenge the men.

So what do people think are so wrong with my predictions?

For next year, I have said that she will challenge Annika.
This year she is already number 2, it isn't that much to ask that she keeps gaining ground.

Then the following season she will topple Annika. This isn't an outrageous statement.

She will have some more years on the lpga dominating and winning major titles, and improving her game to the point where she can compete successfully against the men.

When her competitive instincts get on the pga courses, they better watch out for her, because when Paula joins the pga tour, she will make her way to the top, nearly as quick as she has done on the lpga. This last year was her rookie year and she is already number 2, with 4 titles.
2006-01-06 @ 13:58
Comment from: Asia_Guy [Visitor]
I would normally be hesitant to tout the talents of any sixteen year old in any sport, but not in the case of Michelle.

How many woman golfers have come along that are over six feet tall, weigh 150 pounds and can still see their shoes. She also has a dead perfect swing plane and a club head speed at impact, I have never seen generated by any woman.

She does have faults in her game that show her inexperience and youth. Course management, reading greens and choosing the right club for course conditions have been her weaknesses in the past. Her superior ball striking ability for a male or female has never been placed in question.

Hopefully her "professional" caddie will do a better job for her than he did at the Samsung and Casio to overcome these obstacles.

Nike will assign a full time technician to Michelle ensuring she has the best Nike tools in her bag at the 1st tee.

Am I a Michelle groupie? No Annika is far more to my taste and she is single again.
But I do respect the talent and potential Michelle has.

2006-01-06 @ 14:01
Comment from: Ronnie [Visitor]
Sergio Garcia can hit the ball 295 yards on average, and he is about Paula Creamer's height.

He is registered at 5 foot 10, but I doubt he is even 5 foot 9.

He shows that it is possible for Paula to increase her driving. All she will need to do is increase it to about 280 yards, and that would be enough, with her superior skills.

Paula is a far superior putter to Sergio Garcia. He would love to have her putting skills.
2006-01-06 @ 14:11
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Just as regards heights, only a couple of days ago, Tiger was referred to as 6 foot 2.
That has been stated many times, even though he is only 6 foot tall.
Also Wie has been stated as 6 foot 1 etc. She is only 6 foot.

Media seem to like adding a couple of inches to make the players seem taller.
2006-01-06 @ 14:15
Comment from: Asia_Guy [Visitor]
Granted Norman, I only stated she was over six feet (maybe only a cm) but the question still stands. How many have you seen in your lifetime?

Ronnie, I expect Sergio will be trying for a hole in one with Paula sooner or later at some mixed event.
2006-01-06 @ 14:24
Comment from: June [Visitor]
Actually I think she is 6'1". It is she who claims to be only 6".

She often stated that she didn't want to grow any further and is in denial the fact she grew an inch over the last year.

Put together with the fact that she started to lose lots of babyfat and one inch added, she did look much taller than before lately, circa LPGA Championship.
2006-01-06 @ 14:50
Comment from: June [Visitor]
I should have said "thinner", not "taller".
2006-01-06 @ 14:52
Comment from: extremely under par [Visitor]
Where are you under par? At least you were funny and with some knowlege of golf, not like the little potty mouthed Alex or "I am a Michelle Wie's fan" wink , wink, Stoned. Well, I hate to throw away my, ahem, deep and profound knowledge of golf on these brats, but consider the following: 1)imgaine the results if you put Michelle Wie's talents on a fully grown male or female, seasoned golfer. 2) strenth is last to develope, especially the fore arm strenth.
2006-01-06 @ 15:06
Comment from: extremely under par [Visitor]
strength, forearm strength
2006-01-06 @ 15:13
Comment from: extremelu under par [Visitor]
Ronnie, my dear fellow. Allow me to help you in your claims of Paula's greatness. You need to claim that Paula will be able to drive 300 yards to be a viable PGA player. Furthermore, you need to claim that she will be able to carry about 290 +. Now, Paula plays well on her mid irons. You also need to be able to claim that she is also experimenting with blade like (cavity or muscle back) irons. Perhaps, Asia could help you on why clubs a player uses gives away his/her game. Good luck , Ronnie
2006-01-06 @ 15:21
Comment from: stone [Visitor]
Extremely under the influence you are really losing it. Imagine if we could give Michelle Wie's talents to a fully developed male, ok, you would have a Tiger Woods clone without the killer instinct, amateur resume, ability to win or putt. I would rather imagine a world where we could put a fully developed brain in your head. Quit with all the imagining, Michelle is who she is and that should be plenty good enough for now. Asia Guy I agree with your assesment of Michelle's physical tools and genetic advantages over most women, but not with your assesment of Mannika. I think you have been out to sea to long, she's got a pretty serious moustache working. Norman, Tiger got his distance from finally embracing technology more then from added strength or his newest swing changes. Michelle already has the newest technology and with her already hitting that Sasquatch driver I wouldn't expect any exponential leaps in driving distance. Finally, Ronnie I personally agree with you that at this very moment in time Paula Creamer is the stronger LPGA player then Michelle, but when it comes to having a game suited for the PGA Michelle is the one with the longer carry, higher trajectory and necessary spin to at least try to compete with the men, Paula simply does not have that type of game and sorry to say won't ever have it. You talk about her adding 30 yards to every club like it's as easy as snapping your fingers and your comparison of Paula to Sergio Garcia is downright insulting. Sergio is a monster off the tee and one of the absolute best ball strikers in the world his putting is poor, but his game is light years ahead of Paula's, Michelle's, Annika's and 98% of PGA tour pros. Ronnie, invest in some padding for your walls...please.
2006-01-06 @ 15:50
Comment from: extremely under par [Visitor]
Yawn
2006-01-06 @ 16:05
Comment from: stone [Visitor]
To date the most intelligent thing you have said.
2006-01-06 @ 16:25
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Stone,

Your last post actually made me laugh out loud -- it contained an excellent repartee.

Ronnie,

I'm vascillating between feeling sorry for you and wanting to mock you.

You seem a bit incredulous that people think your predictions are silly. Really, it's much like Charles Manson being befuddled by the fact that people think he's crazy.

You try to draw an equivalency between Creamer and Garcia because they're the same height . . . okay . . . Have you heard of testosterone? Do you know anything about physiology?

Creamer hasn't done much weight training I'm sure, and her average driving distance is 248. However, I doubt that Garcia has done much either, and his average is 295. Are you getting the picture?

Moreover, no matter who you are, you'll be hard pressed to gain more than twenty yards through physical conditioning; that's just the way it is. This means that Creamer will be topping out around 268, which is okay . . . on the senior tour.

Wie has a much better chance for the simple reason that her starting point is much better, in that she's already averaging about 270 or 275 off the tee. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Wie is a lock to have a better LPGA career than Creamer. After all, if Wie's putting and metal toughness don't improve, she may be the Tom Weiskopf to Creamer's Hale Irwin. But potential to play well on longer courses is a different matter altogether.

By the way, Ronnie, you never answered my question about your handicap. You've got to be a real high handicapper.
2006-01-06 @ 17:47
Comment from: extremely under par [Visitor]
Welcome back under par. I am no fan of Garcia and his swing. Garcia in all likelihood never heard of a minor comcept called "swing plane." I do think, however, that Ronnie could make a claim that Creamer will be able to drive 300 yards with a faster hip turn, extreme inside out swing a la Garcia, and exaggerated release. And onto World Domination for Paula Creamer!!
2006-01-06 @ 18:12
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Extremely,

As I have said before, Ronnie has got to be a high-handicapper who knows nothing about golf. Something that separates the men from the women almost as much as distance is spin rate. For instance, the main problem Sorenstam had at the Colonial was that she generated less backspin than the men did from the same distance and, consequently, could not stop her approaches anywhere near the tight pins.

And Creamer is no different in that regard. Only Michelle Wie approaches the spin rate of some of the men. Even if Creamer picked up 25 yards, her proximity to the hole would still be very poor for that reason.
2006-01-06 @ 18:26
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Asia_Guy,
When I was talking about the height issue, I wasn't questioning your figures, I was more taking up Ronnie's point on Garcia being quoted at 5 foot 10, when everyone knows he's about 4 foot 7 tall.

Also Garcia is a great player, but for his lack of putting skills and concentration.
2006-01-06 @ 18:52
Comment from: Ronnie [Visitor]
Stone, if Tiger got 15 yards from new technology, then so can Creamer.
She hasn't had access to the best technology, because she isn't over hyped.
When she takes over as the best in the lpga, that will change.
2006-01-06 @ 19:04
Comment from: Ronnie [Visitor]
Stone,
Comparing Paula to Sergio, is not insulting. She is the same height as him and probably has a stronger build.

If he can hit it 295 yards, then nearly anybody can. It is just a matter of technique, and technology and she can get it at least to 280 yards which should be good enough.
2006-01-06 @ 19:07
Comment from: Ronnie [Visitor]
Under Par said "Creamer hasn't done much weight training I'm sure, and her average driving distance is 248. However, I doubt that Garcia has done much either, and his average is 295".

Well at the LPGA Takefuji Classic, Creamer hit an average of 278.3 yards.
For lpga courses, she needs to take something off some of her drives, because they are shorter, and sometimes she would be just driving into trouble.
She has shown she can drive it over 275 yards when needed. By 2011, she should add about 10-15 yards to this.
2006-01-06 @ 19:22
Comment from: Ronnie [Visitor]
About this back spin thing.
Creamer is still young. She has developed many wonderful shots in her game.
She has just had a great rookie year. Over the next few years she has plenty of time to develop her back spin and other shots.
2006-01-06 @ 19:25
Comment from: jay [Visitor]
Ronnie. I still don't know whether you are serious or not. Anyway at Takehuji a lot of players were hitting over 290 because fairways were so hard, so her 278 at takefuji was nothing extraordinary. Bottom line is Creamer couldn't even outdrive wie even when wie was hitting 3 wood off the tee.
2006-01-06 @ 20:04
Comment from: Asia_Guy [Visitor]
Backspin is generated by club head speed (CHS)and angle of attack. Below 95 MPH forget about it. Annika hits her irons an average of 85-90 MPH CHS according to Calloway. Michelle averaged 100-105 MPH CHS at the Weetabix.

Also to hit a forged blade long iron effectively you need the swing speed to consistently be higher than 95 MPH.

2006-01-06 @ 20:07
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Perhaps Creamer could get a new goupanuranium backed forged blade iron.

Then maybe she wouldn't need so much swing speed to get the spin that she needs to stop the ball.

The goupanuranium backed drivers are supposed to be excellent as well.
2006-01-06 @ 20:17
Comment from: Jim COULTHARD [Visitor]
Ronnie

Let me see if I understand. Paula Creamer made over a million dollars this year, but she cannot afford the latest technology when she buys golf clubs? Even at the beginning of the year she was first class as far as new LPGA players are concerned. It was Brittany Lincicome who had to make due.

2006-01-06 @ 20:22
Comment from: jay [Visitor]
I am big michelle wie fan but 105mph head speed seems to be unrealistic. We are talking about iron, not driver. I don't think there is much difference in iron's CHS between Annika and wie but definitely wie generates more spin because of angle of attack factor.
2006-01-06 @ 20:22
Comment from: Ronnie [Visitor]
Creamer can afford to buy expensive clubs, but companies like Nike design clubs for Tiger and Michelle and they are modified and modified until they perfect for the player.

When Paula becomes the lpga number 1, then maybe she will have such a team of engineers measuring her, and the way she grips the club, and the variable so that clubs can be adjusted so that they will benefit her most. I think it will take her getting to number 1 on the lpga before she gets that recognition.

Wie and Tiger are spoon fed. It is like in Formula 1 where Michael Schumacher was given the best car. Soon Creamer will have the best clubs in her bag. That will change things.
2006-01-06 @ 20:45
Comment from: Jim COULTHARD [Visitor]
Creamer was a millionaire when Wie turned pro. A few days later at the Samsung, the equipment advantage had to be with Creamer. There wasn't time for Wie to even get close to Creamer. Much more customized help was there for Creamer the last time they met
2006-01-06 @ 23:09
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Ronnie,

You're showing your hacker colors again. You actually have said that Creamer ISN'T playing with the best equipment, equipment designed to maxmize her distance. Ron, who do you think Creamer is, some hack playing for a Division III college team?

Let me clue you in on something: it is now standard on the tours to have your swing computer analyzed so that equipment can be tailor-made for you. It is not something reserved for only the very best players, and these pros cross every "t" and dot every "i." Furthermore, Creamer is already one of the best female players in the world; to think that she can't have the best of everything is quite silly.

Lastly, Ron, I'm only a seven handicap at the moment, and even I intend to have my swing analyzed for the purposes of having clubs custom-made within the foreseeable future.

There's no charge for this golf lesson, you little 100-shooter you.
2006-01-06 @ 23:22
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Under Par, I've noticed a disturbing trend on this thread. For quite a while, we who have been posting here have felt comfortable and secure in the knowledge that we had in our midst the most misdirected blogger to ever grace the internet. That man was and is the one, the only, Alan! As far as nonsense goes, Alan has always been the real deal, the complete package. He has been both the Master of Malapropism and the Sultan of Spoonerism. He has proven his ability to misspell any word no matter how simple. In a word, Alan is Hall of Fame material. But lately, a band of interlopers led by Ronnie, Jay, Asia Guy, June , and Extremely Under-Endowed have been attempting to steal Alan's fans. To be sure, they have exhibited some talent, or lack thereof, but they should be forewarned that they will never be any real threat to our Alan. They are quite simply out-classed. Surely they must have noticed that just when they seemed to be closing the gap in bizarre posts, Alan came up with his words of wisdom about Annika Sorenstam not wanting to have children, and he swept into an insurmountable lead and a convincing victory. Go ahead guys and girls, keep trying. But as far as inane commentary goes, Alan is DA MAN!
2006-01-06 @ 23:56
Comment from: Paul W [Visitor]
Ronnie, since Creamer signed a sponsorship deal with TaylorMade last fall, I'm sure they've made any customizations she needs. There's only so much you can do with customizing clubs (and still have regulation clubs!).
2006-01-07 @ 00:02
Comment from: Asia_Guy [Visitor]
You are right on Paul. That is another reason Wie went with Nike because TaylorMade already had their darling in Paula. Michelle doesn't like rivals in endorsements.

You can grind off bounce, or adjust lie off an iron Ronnie, but you will never turn a cavity back iron into a forged one.

2006-01-07 @ 01:44
Comment from: Vernon W [Visitor]
Excuse me, guys, I don't mean to interupt your discussion but I wanted to ask Mark Nessmith one question. Mark, if you had 2 children and someone asked you on national TV, which child do you prefer, what would you say? Should you be required to choose between them? Why should Wie? Would you "whiff" the question by saying you love both?
2006-01-07 @ 04:28
Comment from: Asia_Guy [Visitor]
Yes Vernon it was a loaded question that only an idiot like Ralf ings would expect an answer from.

It is like asking Michelle which sponsor she likes better. Or maybe which parent she loves more.

You hit the nail on the head Vernon and as an added bonus brought the blog back on point.

2006-01-07 @ 04:56
Comment from: Patrick [Visitor]
I have a question...when women play PGA events...do they go to the men's locker rooms or women's locker rooms? Cause i would think that being the only female to use that whole locker would be very annoying
2006-01-07 @ 06:58
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
No, the only thing Vernon hit on the head was himself with the dunce-cap he donned. We're not talking about children or parents -- the analogy is silly.

As I said previously, NO ONE under the sun would have been offended had she said that she'd prefer to win an LPGA event. Who would care?

Back to the funny farm now.
2006-01-07 @ 07:11
Comment from: Patrick [Visitor]
joke.
2006-01-07 @ 07:19
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Alex,

I hate to tell you this, but don't crown Alan Grand Master Dum-dum just yet. There are a few posters on the AOL golf boards who you just have to see to believe. Even then you might not believe it.

Really, though, I think we need different categories of awards. For instance, Ronnie could be a leading candidate for the "Guy We Never Thought Could Possibly Be Serious" award. Norman might win the "Michelle Wie PR Man Audition" award. June may contend for the "I Am Woman, Hear Me Bore" award. Every one of them has his talents. What they are I have no idea.
2006-01-07 @ 07:25
Comment from: June [Visitor]
Hey, Under Par.

Just tell me who had a better rookie season among Creamer, Karri Web, Juli Inskter and Se Ri Pak,or do I even have to mention Nancy Lopez.

I just pointed out that some on this board think that there was never a rookie who had a great season when in fact Creamer's season seems to be pale when compared to other HOF.

Simple factual statement. Maybe some just can't read.
2006-01-07 @ 09:08
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
As regards the original blog question, if Michelle had answered that she wanted to win an lpga event more, than maybe her sponsors may not have liked it, because she is stated as wanting to make it on the mens tour and I think some of the endorsement money is due to this ambition.

Also, perhaps she doesn't want a win on the lpga, perhaps she wants a pga cut more, but she didn't want to admit that, because lpga players might say she was disrespecting them.

Then another possibility is that maybe she was being honest. Maybe, just maybe, they are of equal importance to her. She wants to do both and thinks both would be great.
2006-01-07 @ 09:52
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
June,

Yes, you made an excellent point there. Perhaps Webb, Inkster, Lopez and Pak will be dominating the men's tour a decade hence too. I really don't know what all these poor guys are going to do once they've been supplanted.
2006-01-07 @ 09:54
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Under Par, June seems to be trying, but she needs a lot more lack of substance to get on the first page of the leader board. On a scale of one to ten Alans, I'd give her latest post two Alans.
2006-01-07 @ 10:16
Comment from: stone [Visitor]
Athletes rarely give interesting interviews because they are trained to dodge questions, take politically correct stances and speak in cliches. Listen to a football player this playoff season when he is asked which team would he rather face and you will likely here this response, "We don't care who we play next round, we're just going to go out there and give 110%, they're both great teams..etc.." We all know that's nonsense, but it's the right thing to say because it doesn't offend one of the teams or give them any added motivation. This is exactly what Michelle was doing and she was right to do so. She was simply taking a pc stance, careful not to offend the LPGA fans or the PGA fans and also careful not to give her critics any more ammunition. Michelle has been managed and marketed extremely carefully and extremely effectively she would not be tripped up by such a question. It does raise questions about how much of her real personality we see, but the same can be said for almost any proffesional athlete.
2006-01-07 @ 10:23
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Under Par, My score for Norman's latest lackluster post: two Alans. Sure, it had his signature equivocation, but we've all come to expect as much. Helpful hint: Norman needs to learn the use of the unintentional double entendre to move up (or is it down?) in class.
2006-01-07 @ 10:43
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Okay, now the question is, will anyone break the two Alans barrier?
2006-01-07 @ 11:30
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
stone, your comments make far too much sense for them to be accepted by several of the posters on this board. I tried that tack and got nowhere. But I doggedly kept at it until Jim C administered the "coup de grace". I gave up any attempt at rational debate after he emphatically stated that the EASIEST way for Michelle Wie to obtain a PGA tour card would by qualifying through the PGA "Q" school. That did it! Now I just sit back and enjoy the kids playing in the sandbox and throw in an occasional comment for comic relief.
2006-01-07 @ 12:13
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Under Par, two Alans is not really a barrier. Last year the committee decided that two Alans should be the minimum for qualifying, similar to making the cut. I am frankly disappoionted in the current crop of pretenders, wannabe's and johnny-come-lately's. They do have the lack of talent, the question is, do they have the desire? Using the old saw, "Necessity is the mother of invention" as the yardstick, I'd have to say no. Take Asia--Guy for instance. By his own admission he is the embodiment of the dilletante, sailing around the Pacific with disdain for work of any kind. Extremely Under-endowed is too concerned with his next hit on the bong to exert any real effort. And June, jay, and Ronnie get three squares and a flop and a weekly bus ride to the mall from the good people at the home, so where is the inspiration? Ronnie is the most disappointing to me. I rated his first post a solid six Alans, but he has tailed off badly. So it would seem that, barring any unforeseen happenings, Alan will remain top dog indefinitely. I've noticed that even Alan must realize his preeminent position. He has been resting on his laurels of late.
2006-01-07 @ 13:31
Comment from: June [Visitor]
Alex, your post reminds me of Chris Baldwin. Maybe you are in the wrong blog.
2006-01-07 @ 13:50
Comment from: Asia_Guy [Visitor]
Fellow bloggers after reading the comments from under par and Alex, I’ve come to realize who these “Charlatans of the Golf World” really are on the other side their keyboards. I will unmask these Charlatans later in the post for you.

Think about it fellow golf bloggers, as you played golf over the years who are the most anal, inconsiderate, rude, bellicose and truly ignorant people you have played a round of golf with? The professions that come to mind for me are the real Charlatans, Doctors and Lawyers.

Bloggers if you want to really enjoy a round of golf, go out and play with these characters. The golf course is where they take out all the frustrations of their mundane lives and when winter sets in they turn to these golf boards for an outlet.

Most Doctors or Lawyers join private clubs at the invitation of some colleague not for the love of golf, but as a step up the ladder on their social climbing journey. Of course they are too busy “saving the world” to play more than 12 or maybe a few rounds more each year and this is where the frustration really takes hold.

Doctors and Lawyers are the “Masters of Perfection” of everything they control until they hit the links. This is where reality sets in and they are brought down to their knees by a set of sticks and some hard rubber balls. I’ve witnessed these frustrations first hand bloggers and enjoyed thoroughly each encounter. They throw or break cubs, curse like sailors, hit into groups in front, take 30 minutes to look for a ball and cheat like nobody’s business. The part you will enjoy the most bloggers is at the end of the round when these clowns open their wallets or write a check and pay out. How quiet they become.

With their enormous egos you can easily suck them into betting a hundred bucks a hole during the round. Each of them will supply (not requested) a single digit handicap at the beginning of the round. (They must equate handicaps to penis size I guess. Their own!) Over the years I’ve made far more money from this group of “Charlatans” than they ever got from me in fees or retainers. It is like “stealing candy from a baby”.

So under_par and Alex what do you do to scratch out a living? Construction work maybe?
2006-01-07 @ 13:56
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Alex,
You are in no position to be talking about other people making silly statements.

Stones most recent comments make sense as to one possible reason why MW answered the question the way she did. Alex's murmerings have made little or no sense.
2006-01-07 @ 14:11
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Jim Coulthard's statement that Q-school would be the easiest route for Michelle to get her pga tour card is correct.

I assume that Alex is implying that when Jim said "Easiest", that he meant "easy". That is not the case.
Jim hasn't stated that it would be easy.

For example if you play a golf course and you say that hole 14 is the easiest hole, that doesn't mean that the hole will be an easy one for Alex to play.

Just because MW getting a q-card through q school would be the easiest route, does not make that easy also.
2006-01-07 @ 14:14
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Under Par, It seems that we both have incurred the wrath of some of Alan's challengers. Here's my score card as to the latest "Alan" ratings on their replies. June: Showed limited promise by not getting the gist of it at all. Also, a small plus for throwing in Chris Baldwin's name. However, no "you go girl", so 1.5 Alans. Asia Guy: Showed a lot of potential by introducing the fantasy of his being the only golf hustler in Thailand. However, post was too lengthy and repetitive. Also showed no comfort with the split infinitive or the double negative. I'd give it a tentative 2.5 Alans. Norman: Nothing new. Same old, same old. No rating.
2006-01-07 @ 14:44
Comment from: Paul W [Visitor]
Alex,
Does your mother know you are spending so much time on the internet?
2006-01-07 @ 14:50
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Paul W, I got this new toy for Christmas. Lot's of entertainment for a small price. What's your excuse?
2006-01-07 @ 15:10
Comment from: Jim COULTHARD [Visitor]

June. I was thinking of your points on other great LPGA rookies. But we have to acknowledge that Paula Creamer has had the greatest rookie year of any player who was nowhere near the number one player. The fact that Paula was 8 victories behind the number one player might actually help her avoid the drop off that some other players have expeerienced.

2006-01-07 @ 15:18
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Asia--Guy, Belated congratulations on your ability to win money at golf from people who actually work for a living. You indeed have a noble calling. That is, if this whole scenario isn't a figment of your imagination. I don't want to burst your bubble, but try tempering your gloating with this fact: While 100 dollars a hole is without doubt a princely sum to you, to a successful attorney it is a mere pittance. If you won all 18 holes you could probably pay your rent for the whole year, whereas 18 hundred dollars might buy good after dinner cigars for a good attorney for, say, six months.
2006-01-07 @ 15:58
Comment from: jay [Visitor]
Last year Grace park won twice including major and had 6 runner up finish. Grace is also one of few players who can match Annika yard for yard in terms of length. Still there wasn't much talk of Annika's #1 position being in jeopady. Now Creamer won twice and had one top 10 finish in major and all of sudden writer like Tim McDonal is talking as if Annika's #1 is in jeopady. It should be remembered that there was 1.5 stroke difference between Annika and Creamer, meanwhile in 2004 difference between Annika and Grace was one stroke. That means Grace park of 2004 was much more closer to Annika's level than creamer of 2005.

Creamer can not be considered Annika's main threat if Grace Park wasn't considered serious threat. I think 3 factors contributed this rivarly thing between Annika and Creamer. First Creamer is teenager. Second Creamer is American. Third Creamer basicaly accused Annika of cheating. But if we look at records, There is no evidence that Creamer would be serious threat to Annika right now, especially when creamer is 20 yards shorter than Annika.
2006-01-07 @ 18:22
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Alex,

I really think you underestimate Ronnie. Since I'm new to this rating system I will defer to your greater degree of experience, but I think Ronnie has risen to the occasion. His assertion that Creamer "doesn't have the best equipment" but will when she is number one has got to be one for the books.

How many sets of great golf clubs are in existence? Must only be four or five. I guess Woods has one, and Singh, and Sorenstam . . .
2006-01-07 @ 18:35
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Jay,

They're talking about Creamer being a threat to Sorenstam for the same reason why they talk about Wie being a PGA Tour prospect: inferred potential. In other words, people assume that because they're young they're exhibiting just the tip of the iceberg. This is not a given.
2006-01-07 @ 18:40
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Under Par, Ronnie has shown a lot of promise, and I do apologize for missing his post on Creamer's golf clubs. I give it seven Alans, but with the proviso he maintain the same level of inanity for the next three months. That is the bare minimum to retain a card.
2006-01-07 @ 19:21
Comment from: Ronnie [Visitor]
Alex and Under Par,
How naive are you people?

You think that everyone has the same clubs.
You guys really need to grow up.

Michelle Wie has a stylist and a make up person, and a sports pschychologist and an engineer and a nutritionist and whatever else she needs.

For Tiger Woods the same is true.

I am really surprised at your complete lack of understanding of how professional sports work.
I admit that maybe I overdid it slightly on the clubs, but do you guys honestly believe that a rookie on the pga tour this season will have as much backup as Tiger Woods has? If you answer yes, you are even more stupid than I thought.

As a rookie, last season, Creamer wouldn't have had access to the best. When Annika competed against the men, she get the best of everything because of all the hype and publicity, that event created. Whether you like it or not Creamer simply doesn't have the backup of Sorrenstam or Wie.
They are the two heavily endorsed girls out there.

When Creamer takes over as the world number 1 female in the next 2 years, the sponsors will take notice, and then you will begin to notice the changes in her game.

Also, it has been said that Creamer has been working on improving her driving over the holidays, so hopefully she will add some yardage.

But she has until 2011 before she will be hitting the pga anyway.
2006-01-07 @ 20:01
Comment from: Ronnie [Visitor]
I should also mention, that by 2011, they will have started to shorten some of the pga courses, because the sponsors who want Wie to win will have demanded it.
2006-01-07 @ 20:03
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Ronnie,

Maybe my posting about your silly contention escaped your notice. These pros have clubs custom made LONG before they get anywhere near the level of a successful PGA Tour player. By the way, it may take Creamer till 2011 to supplant Sorenstam.

Alex,

I forgot to mention, Ronnie also said,

"Comparing Paula to Sergio, is not insulting. She is the same height as him and probably has a stronger build."

This guy has to deserve ten Alans . . . plus some kind of bonus.


2006-01-07 @ 20:33
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Also, Ronnie, Creamer has the resources of the huge company TaylorMade at her disposal, a company that is spending a lot of money to sponsor her and has a vested interest in ensuring that she does well. You don't think they had their best and brightest fine-tuning her equipment for her? This is a simple IQ test, by the way.
2006-01-07 @ 20:39
Comment from: Asia_Guy [Visitor]
Ronnie, Miss Creamer hails from Newport Beach, California (one of the richest cities in America)not East LA. She has not gone wanting for anything her entire life including the best equipment, coaches and boyfriends. I believe her current boyfriend is nicknamed "Tank" or something like that.

Alex I believe I struck a nerve.


2006-01-07 @ 20:52
Comment from: Jim COULTHARD [Visitor]
Jay

Creamer/Park Grace park was a mid-20s vet who showed modest improvement over the previous year. Creamer, a teenage rookie who showed great improvement. You are right about Creamer being an American(white and not Asian American). The die was cast before the cheating thing.

In many cases the Creamer bandwagon is linked to a repudiation of the Wie bandwagon. Wie was put forth as the future of women's golf--and except for Ronnie, Creamer supporters are pushing her as a replacement for Annika earlier than they would otherwise--because WIE was talked about in that context.
2006-01-07 @ 23:23
Comment from: Patrick [Visitor]
Ronnie....all of your posts have caused me serious side pain...from laughing. I may have to see a doctor for this... anyway, TaylorMade is one of the top golf equipment companies, and is preferred by many tour pro's over Callaway and Nike (Annika's equipment sponsor, and Woods' and Wie's Equipment sponsor).

Let me give you a slap of reality. My golf coach was a PGA pro long ago and was sponsored by Mizuno. He is sponsored by Mizuno till this day even though he is considered "old" for golf. He has told me countless times that EACH PRO sponsored by EACH COMPANY gets the best of the best equipment. You realize that TaylorMade has the "#1 Driver" on tour as so stated in their ad campaigns...thus saying, Creamer must have the #1 driver as well, being the main sponsored female pro. EACH PRO GETS WHAT THEY WANT. THEY ONLY RECEIVE THE BEST EQUIPMENT...THE COMPANIES WANT THEIR PROS TO WIN.

TaylorMade wants to give its top female the best so she can beat Annika...for you to say that the best equipment in all of golf is not available to Creamer is simply ignorant. You must realize this, and until you do, please refrain yourself from posting any more of your comments...because I have no desire to die from excessive laughing at such a young age.
2006-01-07 @ 23:28
Comment from: Patrick [Visitor]
For everyone who has said that Wie has won nothing...


HAWAII STATE WOMEN'S/WOMEN'S DIVISION PROFESSIONAL & AMATEUR TOURNAMENTS:

2002 Hawaii State Open, Women's Division Champion (won by 13 strokes with 8-under par)
2002 Hawaii State Junior Golf Association’s Tournament of Champions, Champion
2001 Hawaii State Open, Women's Division 2nd Place
2001 Hawaii State Women’s Stroke Play Championship (one of three major tournaments in Hawaii), Youngest winner at age 11
2001 Jennie K. Wilson Invitational (the most prestigious women’s amateur tournament in Hawaii), Youngest winner at age 11
2001 Hawaii State Junior Golf Association’s Tournament of Champions, Champion
2000 Hawaii State Open, Women's Division Low Amateur
2000 Honolulu Mayor's Cup, Champion
2000 Hawaii State Women’s Stroke Play Championship, Third place

HAWAII STATE OPEN, PROFESSIONAL & AMATEUR MEN/MEN'S DIVISION TOURNAMENTS

2004 Waikoloa Open, September 24-26, Amateur Division T2
2004 Hawaii Pearl Open, Feb 6-8 (click here to see daily scorecards & stats), T38 (low amateur runner up)
2003 Hawaii State Amateur Stroke-Play Championship, T4
2003 25th Anniversary Hawaii Pearl Open, first & youngest female to make the cut at age 13, T43 overall.
2002 Hickam Invitational Tournament, T5
2002 Barbers Point Invitational Tournament, T4
2002 94th Manoa Cup Hawaii State Amateur Match-Play Championship, first and youngest female (age 12) to advance to the second-round of match play
2002 Hawaii State Amateur Stroke-Play Championship, T17, First female and youngest to make the cut
2002 Hawaii Pearl Open, First female participant
2001 93rd Manoa Cup Hawaii State Amateur Match-Play Championship, first and youngest female (age 11) to qualify for match-play dating back to 1907

AND PLEASE DONT SAY THAT HAWAII JUNIOR GOLF IS A JOKE...GRACE PARK (a top junior in AJGA tournaments, lived in hawaii and competed in every Junior golf tournament...dominating)

ALSO PLEASE NOTE THAT:
The 2005 Girls Junior PGA Champion (also known as Westfield PGA) was won by a Hawaii resident sophomore named Stephanie Kono. She is also attending Punahou School.
She also went on to win the German Jr. Masters...which is a international event.

Also For the 2005 Boy's Junior PGA Championship, a hawaii-resident named Chan Kim placed 6th...so for anyone to say that Hawaii junior golf is a joke...is simply...ignorant.
2006-01-07 @ 23:38
Comment from: jay [Visitor]
Jim. Grace was former Girls' junior runner up and Women's amateur champion and I think she has even more ajga wins than creamer. People expected grace to become big thing right out of gate because of her amateur resume and her power. But grace never won more than one tournament in a year until 2004 and some experts felt grace finally started to live up to her potential and can challenge Annika in 2005. But general public never felt that way and I can understand that because Annika was full stroke better than Grace. It is hard to call a rivarly when one is full stroke better than another.
Now I can understand why Creamer fans want to push creamer as chief rival of Annika but I don't understand how so called experts think same way when stats show she is still miles behind Annika. Only thing separated Annika and Grace was consistency. Grace could hit as long as Annika and hit actually higher ball than Annika. Also grace was one of few lpga players who hit high fade. Same thing can not be said to creamer. Creamer is accurate iron player but Annika is even more accurate and Creamer doesn't come close to Annika when it comes to power. Creamer might be better putter than Annika but that alone doesn't make creamer real rival of Annika.
2006-01-08 @ 00:15
Comment from: Jim COULTHARD [Visitor]
Patrick

How good can Stephanie Kono possibly be? She is not even the best girl golfer in her high school.
2006-01-08 @ 00:16
Comment from: Patrick [Visitor]
Jim COULTHARD...I am laughing at you at this moment. You must be living in the small confinements of a closet if you do not know the caliber of the Westfield Junior PGA Championship. This is a national major for Junior golfers and past champions include Christie Kerr, Grace Park, Tiger Woods, Phil Mickelson...(those are the big names I could muster off the top of my head)

And the German Jr. Masters is an elite tournament with competitors from around the globe.

You ask how good can Stephanie Kono be? She is not even the best girl golofer in her highschool. BUT every sane person knows that one could not compare an amateur to a PRO golfer. That is like comparing You, Jim, with an IQ equivalent to a rock to a five year old child with an IQ of 10. There are no comparisons,

I was just making a point to all those commenters who have stated that Michelle Wie dominating Hawaii Junior Golf means absolutely nothing...that in fact, Hawaii Junior golf has substantial credit to its reputation
2006-01-08 @ 00:40
Comment from: Patrick [Visitor]
Maybe my "sane person knows that one could not compare an amateur to a PRO golfer" was a bit of a stretch...Let me rephrase that.

Any sane person knows that one could not compare a great golfer to a golfer that was one in a billion...
2006-01-08 @ 01:25
Comment from: Vernon W [Visitor]
Under Par:

At last, people are actually responding to you! I am so glad for you!

If no one cares whether Wie prefers the PGA or the LPGA, then why are there 179 comments to this blog? Why are YOU still adding your comments to this blog?

Maybe Wie values both tours equally right now. Maybe she just gave her honest response and does not care whether you or Nessmith agree or not. In fact, I will bet she does not care whether you and Nessmith agree or not.

You can go back to your funny farm now.
2006-01-08 @ 04:54
Comment from: Asia_Guy [Visitor]
Just in from the Coconut Wire Honolulu (Local Rumors).

A bidding war for Michelle’s appearance fees at men’s events in Asia has reached in excess of $1.5 mil for each stop. Event organizers liked the Casio numbers for the two days she appeared and want to jump on the train. Event TV ratings in Japan for those two days went thru the roof and attendance up forty percent.

There is another rumor floating around that she will only play the top events on the U.S. LPGA tour this year (three or four at the most) and the Weetabix in GB.

This may change as she tries to schedule in qualifying for the Open Championship, now that a door for women has opened.

The Sony Open might be the only U.S. PGA event Michelle will have time to appear in this year, as she concentrates on padding her portfolio (purse) in Asia and Europe.

My old friends on Oahu are always sending me the local Chika they pick up on. Ninety percent of the time it is pure BS but other ten percent it is dead accurate.
2006-01-08 @ 05:56
Comment from: extremely under par [Visitor]
More of the prescient commentaries from the World's Most Amazing and Gifted Savant... Yours Truely. 1) Heads will roll if LPGA loses Michelle Wie to other tours, PGA, Asian etc, as LPGA tour is currently engaging in "praise Michelle Wie but tell everyone she can't compete in any other level" campaign 2) Non-major LPGA tournament organizers' united front against paying an appearance fee will crack and crumble, each chasing after Wie like a b#### in heat (ahem) 3)Michelle Wie will play more Asian tour for appearance fees (each fee exceeding what creamer made in 2005 in her mickey mouse tour) 4) Ronnie will replace Under Par, Wild Turkey "imbibing" (snicker, snicker)Alex and two faced he/she, Stoned, as our Bogger darling. Huming softly, "Go Ronnie, Go"
2006-01-08 @ 08:20
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Asia--Guy, Please don't be offended, but $100 a hole to an attorney who probably bills out at $450 or $500 per hour is chump change. As lawyers, your supposed victims have probably contrived a way to write off any losses to you as charitable contributions. Asia--Guy, if you think that playing golf for $100 a hole makes you a high roller, all I can say is "dream on". At my club, we have dollar-a-point gin games where it is not uncommon for $25K to change hands in a single session. We have an ongoing poker game. There is no buy-in since all the players are responsible for any shortages that they might incur during a losing session. The games of choice are seven-card stud and Omaha, played high-low split, eight or better, table stakes. The normal stakes are $25-$50-$100, progressive betting. The average pot size is about $1500. This is not meant to make you feel any more insecure than you already are, I just want you to realize how insignificant $100 a hole is to a successful businessman, doctor or attorney.
2006-01-08 @ 10:19
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Under Par, I think ten Alans for Ronnie's post comparing Sergio unfavorably to Paula is a bit over the top. But, since I'm in a generous mood, I will give it 8+ Alans. Ronnie has shown a lot of improvement lately, and he is accumulating points toward the Alan Cup. The fact that he is entirely oblivious to the tenor of our posts shows that he may be making slight inroads into Big Al's lead. Can Ronnie do it? Can he prove that he is more clueless than Alan? Only time will tell. The weakest part of Ronnie's game is that on rare occasions, he tries to make some sense. I admit it is not very often. He doesn't have as yet that something that enables Alan to go off on tangents in five different directions and remain there. This is why Alan is still the king.
2006-01-08 @ 11:08
Comment from: Jim COULTHARD [Visitor]
Patrick. I can sympathize with you on Michelle Wie and the issue of Hawaiian golf. You should read some of my other posts sometime. But to accuse me of having the IQ of a rock is a bit unkind. You do Michelle Wie and Stephanie Kono a disservice being so quick to attack a perceived slight. I doubt that Stephanie would take offense at my comment--why don't you ask her?
2006-01-08 @ 12:21
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
The question is, Alex, will Ronnie be able maintain this level? Everyone has good days and bad days, you know.

Remember, though, he did say that Creamer has a stronger BUILD that Garcia. That truly is classic.

Hey, Ronnie, ever hear of body fat percentage or strength to weight ratio? Moreover, Creamer is not a hefty gal by any means.

I was a wiry kid in high school, but I didn't know of any girl who was stronger than I was.
2006-01-08 @ 13:28
Comment from: Asia_Guy [Visitor]
Point well taken Alex. Your ostentatious achievements have become legendary in this blog and you have solidified each point I wrote on Lawyers.

A final validation for me Alex would be; how many rounds of golf did you play in 2005 and do you carry a single digit handicap.

2006-01-08 @ 13:29
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Asia--Guy, 21 rounds of golf, 14 handicap. I didn't get to play much; I was too busy racking up those billable hours. Working really isn't all that bad once you're accustomed to it. You ought to try it some time. I have absolutely no doubt that you won more money at golf from doctors and lawyers than you spent for legal or medical expenses. I don't know what the rules are in Thailand, but in Hawaii the methadone clinics and indigent hospital care are free, as are the Legal Aid Society and the Public Defender. And your support of business is probably minimal what with food banks and rent subsidies. You see, Asia--Guy, I have to generate some substantial income to afford such mundane things as food, vehicles, utilities, medical and dental care, high school and college tuition, and, last but not least, private country club membership. Perhaps my biggest expenses are the taxes and maintenance costs on my residence; these cost far exceed those on your pre-owned double-wide. Your reference to "stealing candy from a baby" was revealing. The original was "taking candy from a baby". Perhaps in your case the former is more appropriate. Could that be the reason that you needed the legal expertise of the Public Defender? Is that the reason that you decided to sail West from Hawaii?
2006-01-08 @ 14:13
Comment from: Asia_Guy [Visitor]
Well Alex unfortunately I played less recreational rounds than you did last year, the remaining rounds were business associated.

We sailed west 20 years ago to take advantage of the growing business opportunities in Asia. Hating to fly and live out of hotels, my demure boat has become my mobile home and office. This way I can float around Asia to wherever we have a little project going on and stay onsite while the finishing touches are applied and it is accepted.

I make a modest living compared to you Alex.

2006-01-08 @ 14:43
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Alex,
Since money seems to be the most important thing in your life, is that why you are so jealous of Michelle Wie?
2006-01-08 @ 16:47
Comment from: Jim COULTHARD [Visitor]
Some hope for Ronnie. Paula Creamer shot a final round 79 at the US Women's Open. But at least that was her worst round--one player at the Mercedes shot a final round best of 79 this week.
2006-01-08 @ 20:34
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Alex,

Norman may be scoring well at the moment, but how can his banal attempts compare to " . . . she has a stronger build than Garcia."

Ronnie is a natural.
2006-01-08 @ 20:54
Comment from: j [Visitor]
Know yourself, Alex.
2006-01-08 @ 21:06
Comment from: June [Visitor]
Poor Alex.
2006-01-08 @ 21:37
Comment from: stone [Visitor]
Patrick you have just proved the point of every Wie skeptic on this site. The fact that you did this unknowingly is understandable since you are still in high school. Let me first apologize for any slight implied or intended towards Hawaii junior golf. Hawaii has it's share of fine golfers who should be commended for their efforts. The fact is that no state and local junior golf program should be used to predict future greatness or be used as an example of junior golf dominance and winning capability. The measure is and will always be what juniors do on a national stage against the best golfers from around the nation and the world. You mentioned two golfers Grace Park and Stephanie Kono who have according to you have had better national and international results than Michelle Wie and that is the point. The only knock on Michelle is her resume and the path she has taken thus far, by naming golfers from her own state with more impressive "big stage" results you weaken your own argument. Pick any state in the nation and you can find a dominant local junior golfer. Michelle's accomplishemnts should be celebrated and you should be very proud of your homegirls success, but when doubters say she has won nothing they mean, nothing of substance save for the Publinx title in 2003 and they are right. Look at it this way Patrick, in a couple of years Michelle will have probably won and this whole argument will seem meaningless. Go get her autograph, sneak some alcohol out of your dad's liqour cabinet, get laid and enjoy the beautiful weather, but leave the thinking to the big boys. The idea of a high school kid calling anybody ignorant is the very definition of ironic.
2006-01-08 @ 22:28
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Under Par, How do you like some of the brilliant repartee emanating from resident geniuses "j" and June? It just doesn't get any better than this. Ronnie is what we used to call a "comer." He has all the moves, but he isn't quite there yet. I do look for great things from Ronnie in the future. All he lacks right now is consistency. I think he will score ten Alans at least once this season.
2006-01-08 @ 22:41
Comment from: Patrick [Visitor]
=)

sorry jim, I was a bit cranky and when you mentioned Stephanie, she is a really close friend of mine, I kind of went nuts. I guess I was just venting eh? My apoligies.

Stone. Thanks for your caring comment. I'm very grateful that you did not rip my head off for being a highschooler, but the main point I was trying to make was that Hawaii Junior Golf is not a joke as everyone makes it out to be...(also Michelle did not play in those "junior" events at the age when Stephanie/Grace did..so junior events don't really have that much of an effect for later successes/failures)

my apoligies to everyone...I'll go back to the other activities that I do, "sneak some alcohol out of your dad's liqour cabinet, get laid and enjoy the beautiful weather, [and] leave the thinking to the big boys"

Aloha to all
2006-01-09 @ 00:26
Comment from: June [Visitor]
Poor Alex.
2006-01-09 @ 01:00
Comment from: Jim COULTHARD [Visitor]
No problem PATRICK. You write well--the Grace Park comment was a good one. But the 2005 results probably reflect more on the inspiration Wie has given to the state's golf, than the level that existed when Wie was playing. I consider the no win comments about Wie to be meanspirited and ridiculous. If Wie had turned pro 3 years ago and she had been 18 instead of 13, her LPGA results would have made her a rising star even without any wins on her resume. Top 10s on LPGA Majors count for far more than Junior wins.
2006-01-09 @ 07:56
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Hey June! You go girl! Pay no attention to these naysayers! June, is there a second line to your brilliant observation? The committee has already recommended that the grading system be updated. Soon it might take two Alans to equal one June.
2006-01-09 @ 08:16
Comment from: stone [Visitor]
Patrick your are indeed a getleman and a scholar. If anyone is due an apology it is you. The tone of my email was sarcastic and condescending and for that I apologize. While I happen to disagree with using state/local tournaments as indicators of past or future success, you do raise some valid points including the idea that even AJGA and Women's Amateur event success is not a surefire recipe for professional domination. The road to superstardom is littered with great amateur champions who have fallen by the wayside. The reality is that Michelle has chosen a different path for herself and only time will tell if that path will lead to the victories and the success that she seems destined for. I did mean what I said about enjoying high school, it's a great time in your life at least it was in mine. Maybe If I hadn't raided my father's liquor cabinet quite so much and chased girls a little less I would not be on this site berating high schoolers and ending sentences with prepositions.
2006-01-09 @ 08:29
Comment from: jay [Visitor]
Here are some facts to ponder. Morgan Pressel won Betsy lawls championshp, one of AJGA major. Runner up was Esther choe. Choe shot 80 and 78 at women's open and her two rounds score was 16 strokes worse than wie's first two rounds score. Also Runner up of Rolex girls' junior, another AJGA major, was a girl from Taiwan and she failed to qualify for women's open.
Why nobody questions strength of "national" tournaments?
2006-01-09 @ 09:16
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
It seems that some misinformation is floating around on this board concerning Paula Creamer and Michelle Wie. Asia--Guy says Paula is "from" Newport Beach, CA. But according to my research, she has lived in the Bradenton, FL area since the spring of 2000 where she went all four years to high school and attended a prestigious golf academy. Prior to that, she had lived with her parents in Pleasanton, CA which is in the SF Bay area. Asia--Guy says that Michelle is "over 6 feet tall". June one-ups that by saying Michelle is 6'1". Maybe. But when Asia--Guy puts Michelle's weight at 150 pounds, that is going too far. There is absolutely no way that Michelle weighs 150 pounds. And if she did, being a 16-year-old girl, there is no way she would ever admit it.
2006-01-09 @ 09:24
Comment from: June [Visitor]
As usual, know-all and never-wrong Alex.
2006-01-09 @ 10:52
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Alex,
Your constant comments berating other people are more like something out of pre school.

Perhaps you could either make some attempts to make some kind of an argument, or just accept your defeat gratiously.
2006-01-09 @ 11:30
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
June, You're going to have to do better than your recent posts. You'll never overtake Alan if you keep posting these insipid blogs. And remember, Ronnie is no slouch. So, let's have some of that feisty, feminist rhetoric. C'mon June, you go girl!
2006-01-09 @ 11:35
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Stone, I am glad you softened your unfair position as regards Patrick.

There were some interesting point made in your discussions.

The main substance of alot of arguments regarding Michelle Wie, seems to be lack of wins.
Jay named some junior winners, and how much success they have had on the lpga since, and that success has equaled absolutely none.
It is my contention, that what Michelle has achieved on the lpga so far, has far outweighed anything she could have done in junior competition.
I think that had she concentrated on junior competition and won events across the board, then that success would have been less than her existing lpga success.

Other people have the right to disagree but I think that a top 3 finish in a major, is better than any number of wins in junior competition.
2006-01-09 @ 11:40
Comment from: June [Visitor]
As usual, I-will-never-grow-up Alex.
2006-01-09 @ 11:49
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Looks like June has given up.
2006-01-09 @ 12:09
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Norman, My mother always taught me the virtue of humility, so I'd like to take your advice and accept my defeat gratiously. The thing is, I don't know on what subject I was defeated and I don't know the meaning of "gratiously". Perhaps you would be gracious enough to further elaborate on your post. Thank you.
2006-01-09 @ 12:27
Comment from: Jim COULTHARD [Visitor]
Making an LPGA cut is more impressive than a junior win. Britany Lincicome was the second leading American rookie on the LPGA in 2005. I'm sure she is reasonably happy movimng up from winning 60% of over 100 amateur tournaments to a 2005 season where she retained her card, making the cut in 60% of her 20 events.

We would not be hearing about Michelle Wie's lack of winning if she did not play against men. Indeed, after playing over her head winning the WAPL at 13, she made it back to the match play final the next year only to lose it at the end. She also struggled to an 82 in the final round of the US Women's Open. It looks like no win Wie has the horrible record of 1 out of 3 in the last 3 tournaments she had a reasonable chance to win. 1 out of 4 if you include last year's SBS Open. Hardly something to make an issue of.

But Michelle Wie also plays against the men--and I think her play against men is a lot better than what she does on the LPGA. Look what Ai Miyazato did on her home course against men. Wie is great against women, but she is unreal against men, and if she chokes some near the end it is because it is very hard to maintain an unreal level of play. Also there is the fact that she has to prepare for two different versions of golf--the women's game and the men's game.

We will see in a few days how Michelle does at the Sony. She is almost certain to do better than last year. Her struggles there last year may have put a damper on the beginnning of her year on the LPGA. Last year I thought her T2 at the SBS was a disappointment. This year she should be coming off a stronger finish at the SONY--and with the new PGA schedule, she will have two more weeks to prepare her women's game for the SBS Open on a Hawaiian course with the likely absence of Annika. That should give her a great chance to win, followed by another the next week also in Hawaii. Once Wie starts winning on the LPGA her LPGA confidence is likley to increase dramatically, and she should become even more of a force than she has been up to this time.

2006-01-09 @ 13:13
Comment from: stone [Visitor]
Norman, I agree with your assertation 100% that her results on the LPGA tour though they are not victories are more impressive than national and even international junior crowns. This may be some hater's argument, but it is not mine. My theory focuses more on her playing more high level junior and amateur events in an effort to learn how to win, of course she can not do that now, but my claim is that some of those 2nds and 3rds could have been wins if she had subscribed to the Tiger Woods model of dominating not only state/local level competition but also AJGA and Women's amateur competition. Therefore I do not take anything away from Michelle and recognize her accomplishments to be truly incredible. Listing junior stars who have failed is not at all applicable in the case of Michelle, because she has already proved that she won't fail, what I'm contending is that she could have been even more successful at this point in her career had she had a stronger amateur/junior base and then nobody would be listening to arguments about her inability to win.
2006-01-09 @ 13:16
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
For Alex, when I refer to your defeat, I mean that you have stopped bothering to try to argue any point.

I cannot blame you for this strategy. Whenever you try to make some point about anything to do with golf, someone else usually proves that your point of view is complete nonsense.

Therefore, it is no wonder that you have decided to take another course of action, which is, to insult anyone else who posts here but doesn't agree with you, and to take out your spell-checker and try to insinuate that you are better than everyone else, just because you can spell a few words.

Perhaps if you spent more time on learning about golf, than at your dictionary, you might be able to make at least some valid point.
2006-01-09 @ 13:34
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Stone,
Maybe you are right, that learning at a lower level how to win would have helped her. However I don't think we can say this for sure yet.

If she had learned how to win at lower levels, she wouldn't have played as much at a higher level, so how much lpga experience would she have at this stage?

So as regards, her 2nd and 3rd places on the lpga, I don't think she could have played enough junior golf and still have got those 2nd and 3rds at her current age.

Maybe I am wrong, maybe it will affect her over the next while, in trying to win, but I doubt it.
If she wins this year, she will still be the youngest winner by far, on the lpga tour, and I hope that if that happens, that everyone will acknowledge that she has learned to win on the lpga, at a younger age, than those who had great amateur success.
2006-01-09 @ 13:39
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Jim made a point about Britany Lincicome above.

Perhaps Alex would like to read the comments of Jim Coulthard and Stone, and learn how to make a point and back it up with some facts and reasoning.
2006-01-09 @ 13:42
Comment from: Asia_Guy [Visitor]
For the record the Curtis Cup I posted above is pitting the best amateur US golfers against the best European amateurs.

Paula Creamer was also a member of the US team. Michelle and Paula won both of their singles matches and lost in the team events. The final day Michelle closed out her opponent on the 13th hole. Paula closed out her opponent on the 15th.

This should settle the arguments about Michelle's amateur credentials.
2006-01-09 @ 14:17
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
There are some incorrect points in there:

* She is 6 foot, not 6 foot 1.
* She drives the ball an average of 270-275 yards, not 280 yards.
2006-01-09 @ 14:18
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Annika drives the ball 263 yards, not 270 yards. So she too is overhyped in this article.
2006-01-09 @ 14:21
Comment from: June [Visitor]
Noraman, she said she is 6' but everybody else on the record said she is 6'1".

In fact she insists that she is only 5'12". So go figures.
2006-01-09 @ 14:30
Comment from: Paul W [Visitor]
I'm not sure the 1" helps her all that much. She has a pretty long neck which probably adds a couple of inches. Supposedly she wears size 9 men's shoes which probably gives her a good base to swing from (that's US size 9, not sure what that translates to in Europe).
2006-01-09 @ 14:47
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
June, As I said previously, excessive consumption of alcohol and posting do not mix. Norman, I did not attend the Neville Chamberlain College of Appeasement and Conciliation as you did. It is in your resume that you graduated from that prestigious institution
"summa cum laude". No matter, Norman, you're just going to have to learn to share. You can't have the sandbox all to yourself. Don't get too cocky just because Alan is resting on his laurels and Ronnie is MIA.
2006-01-09 @ 15:13
Comment from: June [Visitor]
An oximoron: Alex preaching another poster about manner.
2006-01-09 @ 15:18
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Jim C, earlier on this thread you flatly predicted that Michelle Wie would "outperform" 4 out of 5 of the "Q" school qualifiers at the Sony. Also, you asked if anyone thought the "Q" school guys would do better than your prediction. I'm, not sure what your definition of outperforming is, but for me it would be making the cut and finishing the four rounds in fewer strokes than the other players in question. When I last checked, 18 "Q" school survivors were entered
in the Sony and six others were designated as alternates. Assuming that maybe two of the alternates get in the field, that would mean that Michelle would have to make the cut and OUTSCORE, not tie 16 of the aforementioned players for your prediction to come true. That is indeed a tall order, even for a talented miss like Michelle Wie. Making the cut is key for your proposition since in the real world, as opposed to Norman's world, no credit is given nor are statistics kept on by how many strokes a cut was missed. My point is, no matter how much you like Michelle, don't bet the rent money on a prop like that.

2006-01-09 @ 15:40
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Horray,
Alex has decided to enter some proper debate.

Of course, he makes the mistake of talking out of his rear end, but at least he is trying and that is definetely an improvement.

As regards your point Alex, unlike you I have absolutely no doubt about what Jim was talking about.

Jim predicted that Michelle would outperform 80% of the q-school graduates. By that he meant that she would finish with better scores than them.

To simplify further:
* If she makes the cut:
Then she has performed better than anyone who hasn't made the cut and those who finished behind her after the final day of the tournament.
* If she misses the cut:
Then she has performed better than those who have shot a worse score than her over those 2 days.

This may be difficult for you to understand Alex, but if Michelle misses the cut with scores of 72 and 71, she has outperformed someone who hit scores of 78 and 77.

I know that is difficult for you to understand Alex, but all we ask is that you try.
2006-01-09 @ 16:11
Comment from: Ronnie [Visitor]
The Wie gang have the Sony to talk about.

Creamer's season is a long way from starting at this stage.

At the moment she is working hard especially on her driving. There really isn't much point in trying to convince people, because there is no lpga play at the moment.

When the season starts in February, you will be surprised at how much Creamer has improved her game.

In 2004 Creamer wasn't doing very well at all on the lpga.
Weren't you surprised by how well she did in 2005.

Next year will bring more.
2006-01-09 @ 16:20
Comment from: Jim COULTHARD [Visitor]
STONE

Could Michelle Wie's 2nds or 3rds have become wins? Let us look at her 2nds and 3rds.

SBS Started last round 5 back of Jennifer Rosales, closed to within 2 at T2. Wie shot 70-70-70, and her final round 70 tied the low round of the day.

MacD LPGA Started last round 7 back of Annika, finished 3 back. Wie shot a final round 69. Tying best round of the day, 67, would have still left her one shot behind.

Evian Started final day 11 back of Creamer, finished 8 back. Only one player at 65 had a better round thean Wie's 68.

Weetabix Started 6 back of Jang, finished 6 back.


2006-01-09 @ 16:22
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Norman,

It's interesting that even you pointed out that Wie was over-hyped in the article provided by Asia. That's always been my point -- she is over-hyped.

Again, Wie very well may make the cut this week, as it's bound to happen eventually (although I have bet money that she won't). I give her about a 35% chance of doing so at THIS event.
2006-01-09 @ 16:27
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Yes Under Par, I said that there was over-hyping in that particular article.

On the whole I think Wie received massive attention.

That has resulted in over-hyping of her abilities. Equally, it has resulted in over-hyping of her failings. In fact, in many cases, things which aren't failing have been called failings simply because of her high profile.

She has the over hype of her achievements but equally the over analysis of anything that goes wrong. If any young man were to miss his first couple of pga cuts, would we know about it? I don't know how Retief Goosen or Ernie Els or Luke Donald or any other professional got on at the start of there careers.
2006-01-09 @ 16:56
Comment from: Jim COULTHARD [Visitor]
NORMAN


I think Alex made my point for me. Even if Michelle Wie misses the cut, Alex is afraid 4 out of 5 Q School grads will miss the cut by a larger margin--which for one thing means they would have to miss the cut by at least the 2 strokes by which Michelle Wie missed the John Deere cut last year. So not more than 1 in 5 could do better than Wie did at the John Deere.


RONNIE

I checked. For an amateur, Paula Creamer actually had a spectacular season on the LPGA in 2004--on a par with the one Morgan Pressel had last year. A 2nd one shot back of Kerr at the Shop Rite. A 13 with Wie at the US Womens Open. A 13 at Wegman's Rochester, and 18s at BMO Financial Candian Open, and Wendys Championship for Children.

Indeed her percentage of Top 20 finishes on the LPGA went down from 71% in 2004 to 65% last year.
2006-01-09 @ 17:24
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Norman,

You see, you're not practicing logic. You asked if we would know about it if a young man missed his first couple of cuts. We sure would if the media had been focusing on him incessantly. However, there is no equivalency between simply reporting the results of a much ballyhooed player -- which is a legitimate role of the media -- and exaggerating the person's abilities.

Having said that, I sometimes do roll my eyes when they report that some woman has missed a cut in a men's event, as if it's unexpected and therefore news. However, they reported on Miyazato's missed cut, too. But the reportage in this regard just buttresses my point. If Wie hadn't been so hyped to begin with, people would expect her to miss cuts, and then news of her doing so wouldn't be deemed so noteworthy, would it?
2006-01-09 @ 17:39
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Under Par, It looks like Norman is drunk with power since Alan has taken a respite and Ronnie has gone into hiding. Norman may be drunk with power, while June is just drunk. I disagree somewhat with your assessment that Michelle has to make a cut in a PGA event eventually. It is axiomatic that the best indication of the probability of something occurring, is if in fact that something has occurred previously. And Michelle hasn't done it yet, as we all know. As an aside to this axiom, in 1969 following the landing on the moon, many scientists and others flatly predicted that by the millenium commercial space travel would be commonplace. If hasn't come to fruition although some of the posters on this board seem to go back and forth to the moon on a daily basis.
2006-01-09 @ 17:43
Comment from: Paul W [Visitor]
Don't get me wrong, Jason Gore is a great story and deserves good press.
2006-01-09 @ 18:04
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Under Par,
Wie does get the overhyped sometimes and her ability is sometimes overhyped, I agree with you about that. However I also contend that if she misses the cut by a shot, by bogeying the last couple of holes they make a big deal out of that. She has hype and has to cope with the good and bad sides of that hype.

******************************
Under Par said:
If Wie hadn't been so hyped to begin with, people would expect her to miss cuts, and then news of her doing so wouldn't be deemed so noteworthy, would it?
******************************

In this regard, I think Wie was a victim of her own success. At the 2004 Sony Open, she over-performed in missing the cut by one shot. She was just 14 years old and I don't think alot of people realise the magnitude of scoring a 68 on a pga course at that age.

For that particular tournament, she made alot of massive putts, and that is why I say she over-performed. I think she performed well beyond, her average ability. That score brought added expectation, and hype. Since then I think she has improved alot as a player. I think she is now a player with the ability to scrape a cut on an average week at the Sony.

She could have a bad couple of days and miss the cut by a few shots, or have a great couple of days and finish 2 or 3 shots inside the cut line.
2006-01-09 @ 18:13
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Under Par, I've read and re-read the first paragraph of Jim C's latest post, but I'm still at a loss as to its meaning. Jim C, can you elucidate? Wherever did you get the idea that I am afraid of whatever is was you stated in your post? If the PGA or anybody besides Norman cared or thought it was relevant, statistics would be kept on the lowest cumulative number of strokes by which cuts were missed. Norman, this may be difficult for you to comprehend, but all we ask is that you try. Case in point: 144 pro golfers enter a tournament. After two rounds, the 70 low scores qualify for the final two rounds. This is known as "making the cut." The player finishing 71st by necessity has missed the cut by a single stroke. The player finishing in 144th place quite possibly may miss the cut by a dozen strokes. But guess what? Both plyers get the same notation in the boxscore: Missed Cut. And they both get the same monetary reward:$0. And two days later nobody, outside of a few Wie fan(atic)s like yourself, cares.
2006-01-09 @ 18:22
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Norman,

When she shot that 68 she had only 23 putts -- it was one of those flukey rounds that a pro has once in a blue moon.

When the men have a putting round like that, they usually shoot far lower.
2006-01-09 @ 18:22
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Exactly Under Par,
Her score outperformed her own ability.

I'm sure you will agree that if she hits 23 putts in her 2nd round in this years Sony, her score would likely be much lower than that.
2006-01-09 @ 19:25
Comment from: June [Visitor]
Still her best score at SONY course before 2004 was 66. And she did it twice. Of course it was never PGA tour green but it should sat something. And how many round she played there since then and what would be her personal best at that course now? One has to wonder.
2006-01-09 @ 19:27
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Alex,
The missed cut scoring you refer to is true for players who have been competing on that level and making cuts for some time.

Ernie Els doesn't care if he misses the cut by 1 stroke or 8 strokes.

However in the case of someone starting out, it does matter. I can tell you this from my personal experience.

From Michelle's point of view, it is also very important to her, that she shoots the best scores she can.

Equally for the rookies, they will want to shoot the best score they can, to give confidence to themselves that they are capable of performing for the rest of the season.
2006-01-09 @ 19:29
Comment from: jay [Visitor]
Somebody mentioned Brittany Rincicome. Does anybody remember Rincicome shot 64 in 3rd round of safeway international and played in final pairing of final round? She shot 80something in final round but nobody wondered why her experience of winning didn't translate at lpga because she is not a michelle wie.
2006-01-09 @ 19:30
Comment from: Jim Coulthard [Visitor]
On Brittany at the Safeway. Most people thought Annika who started the day a stroke ahead, had even more experience winning than Brittany did. Michelle at the Open did start the final day tied for the lead 5 up on Annika, so realistically her chances of winning were better--but it was a course that minimized the advantages of long hitters like Michelle and Annika. And Remember, Michelle was only in a 3 way tie for first with Paula Creamer one shot back. It wasn't a situation where Michelle could simply sit on a lead.
2006-01-09 @ 20:00
Comment from: stone [Visitor]
Jim--I was simply stating my opinion on the career path of Michelle Wie. My opinion happens to be held by a great number of experts(tour players, coaches, commentators, etc..)but in the end it is just my opinion, based partially on facts,partially on what I see and partially on what I hear. Your statistics are as always thourough and well presented, but stats do not tell the whole story of Michelle Wie. Wie supporters should know this, the stat they are constantly trying to compensate for is 0 as in LPGA tournaments won, PGA cuts made and significant amateur titles won(sorry 1 sort of) Does this stat tell the whole story about the seemingly limitless potential and early career of Ms. Wie, of course not. Too many people on this site rely almost entirely on stats to back up their sometimes ridculous claims. You interpret your stats one way, while I might look at the stats you provided and say that she seems to play her best in final rounds when she has no chance of actually winning the tournament(something that is common when there is no real pressure to perform) or that perhaps with more experience in the art of winning she wouldn't put herself in such a hole going into the final round(something Tiger talks about a lot, not shooting yourself out of tournaments). You see there are two sides to every story or in this case to every stat. Jim you are welcome to your opinion and I respect it immensly based on the quality of your writing and the thought with which you present your arguments, but I will hold onto my opinion a little while longer, at least until Michelle wins something. Which for the record I believe won't be long.
2006-01-09 @ 21:30
Comment from: Asia_Guy [Visitor]
Ok folks the Sony is approaching and it is time to put your Wie predictions on the record.

Come on Norman, June, Alex, Jim, Stone, Jay, Paul W, under par, Alex and of course Ronnie (if he is still around after the severe thrashing and abuse he has received) what do you think the outcome will be?

If you are right, bragging rights are yours for the taking. If you are wrong expect a flurry of abuse from "Alex the Terrible".

I'll post my prediction after you have all posted.
2006-01-10 @ 02:53
Comment from: Patrick [Visitor]
Thank you Stone...Jim...for being very understanding...(and also to Under Par for I never got to thank him when he posted at least 3 kind and amicable replies when disagreeing with some of my thoughts...)

My prediction for Wie in the 2006 Sony Open:

I believe that she WILL NOT make the cut this time around...yes shocking! Although I am one of those "wiefanatics" that Alex and Under Par constantly undermine, the weather lately has been FREEZING. (It's 68 degrees here!) The wind and rain have also picked up for Oahu and conditions now seem similar to last year's...that being said, Michelle played very poorly last time around and so on that Judgement...I predict a short Sony for Michelle...(Although I pray that all the deities in the world muster their strength to get her through the first two days..;D )

BUT! even though the weather has been freakishly cold, Michelle has learned a whole new repertoire of shots that we have not seen yet...maybe there still is hope!
2006-01-10 @ 03:47
Comment from: Patrick [Visitor]
Now off to studying for my semester Exams that Michelle took last week!
2006-01-10 @ 03:50
Comment from: Asia_Guy [Visitor]
Patrick she did play well at the Weetabix under worse conditions. Maybe she kept those turtlenecks handy.

The deuce iron she stuffed in her bag will help her keep the ball low and in play.

The one thing we learned from the Mercedes on Maui was the conditions affect everyone at one point or another. Watching the balls blow off the green was classic Hawaiian golf.
2006-01-10 @ 05:07
Comment from: Asia_Guy [Visitor]
Patrick I just pulled up the Honlulu weather and it really isn't that bad:

Thursday...Partly cloudy with isolated showers. Highs 74 to 80. East winds 15 to 20 mph. Chance of rain 20 percent.

Thursday Night...Partly cloudy with isolated showers. Lows 65 to 70. Northeast winds 15 to 20 mph. Chance of rain 20 percent.

Friday...Partly cloudy with isolated showers. Breezy. Highs 74 to 80. Northeast winds 15 to 25 mph. Chance of rain 20 percent.

Friday Night...Partly cloudy with isolated showers. Lows 65 to 70. East winds around 15 mph. Chance of rain 20 percent.

Saturday...Partly cloudy in the morning then becoming mostly sunny. Isolated showers. Highs 74 to 80. East winds 15 to 20 mph. Chance of rain 20 percent.

Saturday Night...Partly cloudy with isolated showers. Lows 65 to 70. East winds 15 to 20 mph. Chance of rain 20 percent.

Sunday...Partly cloudy in the morning then becoming mostly sunny. Isolated showers. Highs 74 to 80. East winds 15 to 20 mph. Chance of rain 20 percent.
2006-01-10 @ 05:30
Comment from: jay [Visitor]
I think wie will make cut by one stroke. As long as it is not kona winds, I think it will actually help wie's chance. Hack, Jason Gore and Sean O'hair played as if they have never played in the wind before. BTW, "Ivan the terrible" might be turning in grave right now. I would rather call "Alex the Horrible"
2006-01-10 @ 09:00
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Jay said:
Somebody mentioned Brittany Rincicome. Does anybody remember Rincicome shot 64 in 3rd round of safeway international and played in final pairing of final round? She shot 80something in final round but nobody wondered why her experience of winning didn't translate at lpga because she is not a michelle wie.
************************

Very good point Jay. That is another example of how Wie gets judged unfairly.

I hadn't been aware that Brittany hit such a round. That just goes to show, that nobody particular cares much what she shoots.

Perhaps Stone will look at Brittany's situation.
- Brittany, a proven amateur winner.
- Shoots 66 in round 3 to get into the final pairing.
- What happened next? Did she use all she had learned in winning amateur titles to good effect. Had she in fact learned how to "close the deal" in winning these amateur titles.
- Nope, she shot 79 in the final round. As I have stated many times before, if you win amateur titles it does not "teach you how to win", as so many people have stated.
- All it does is teach you how to beat weak opposition.
- The reason I am so steadfast about this, is that I won quite a few amateur titles in Europe myself, but when I tried my hand at Challenge Tour golf, it didn't help one bit.
2006-01-10 @ 09:18
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Wie is due to play a practise round with Sean O'Hair. Given his current form, how much will she learn?
2006-01-10 @ 09:20
Comment from: jay [Visitor]
I thought Rincicome shot 64 at 3rd round but it was Rosie Jones. I also thought she shot more than 80 because I remember she had double and triple in her first 5 hole. She shot "repectful" 79 considering her horrible start.
2006-01-10 @ 09:33
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Asia,

I have made my prediction on more than one occasion. I have said that she has a 35% chance of making the cut at THAT event.
2006-01-10 @ 10:50
Comment from: stone [Visitor]
Norman--I knew it wouldn't be long before you started citing your resume. You've been dying to tell us about your, "golf career" for weeks. You should be proud of your amateur success and it certainly tells us that you have at the very least a player's knowledge of the game of golf. It does not, however make you the leading authority on pyschology and the art of winning. Let's look at your situation vs. that of Michelle Wie's. You were obviously a decent amateur player who while good enough to win a few minor titles was clearly outclassed at the next level. Nothing to be ashamed of, you were and probably still are a better golfer then myself and probably most of the golfers on this site. Learning to win in your case was not going to make up for the fact that you just didn't have the requisite skill to take your game to the next level. Michelle Wie on the other hand has all the ability and talent in the world, nobody doubts she has the game to compete on the LPGA Tour, what they doubt is her ability to win, to seal the deal, to be mentally strong enough to fufill the promise of all her talent. What I am saying is that perhaps the one thing that would have gotten her over the hump already is if she had won junior/amateur tournaments and learned what it feels like to win against high level peer competiton. It is just a theory one that may not be correct, but it is a theory that can not be proven wrong be your's or anybody elses experiences because they simply do not apply to Michelle Wie. Everybody is different I am simply trying to understand why a girl who many feel is already one of the best three, maybe even two female golfers did not win more amat titles and has not won on the LPGA tour and I don't want to here its about age, if she's as good as everybody says she is it shouldn't matter. Oh yeah, Michelle can and should learn a lot from the reigning PGA rookie of the year, be careful about judging people from the results of one weekend. Did you happen to see the conditions at the Mercedes. Any honest thoughts about what Michelle might have shot in those scoring conditions, my guess would have been mid 80's and that is generous.
2006-01-10 @ 12:02
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Stone, many points to answer there.

Firstly in regard to myself, I did go on to achieve more in my career, including wins at a higher level, albeit not at the highest level. I have played at the highest level, but only on a limited playing privalages, not with a full tour card.

I agree with what you are saying that, that doesn't make me any more knowledgeable. I know a couple of players, who are far better golfers than myself on the European Tour, who completely disagree with many of my views. Equally I know more who agree, so your standard of golf doesn't mean you know better.

My own point was that, being good enough to seal the deal at the amateur level didn't help in my case at the next level. I still lost leads in the final stages.

It is possible that Michelle is different. All I am saying is that if she were to win 250 amateur titles, it wouldn't mean that she would necessarily be able to win lpga titles.

As regards Sean O'Hair's round, I was just using that as a joke. Sean is a very fine player, and many of us would love to have his talent.

I wouldn't like to speculate about what Michelle's score would be, because I don't think it would look too pretty. As a young player she would struggle even more than most of the other players. I hope conditions are much better at the Sony.

*******************************
Stone said:
I am simply trying to understand why a girl who many feel is already one of the best three, maybe even two female golfers did not win more amat titles and has not won on the LPGA tour
*******************************

Here are some reasons:
1. Sorry but age does count. If she were to win, she would be the lpga's youngest winner by 2 years.
2. She plays a maximum of 8 events per year. If she were to play 25 events in a season, like Paula Creamer, I would be shocked if she did not win. However, with only 8 scattered events per season, that doesn't help you get your flow. Most players need to play week in and week out to get their rhythm.
3. Annika plays on the lpga tour. With her winning half the events she plays in, and being a far better player than Wie or any other female, it cuts Wie's chances to about 4 per season. That makes winning pretty hard going.
2006-01-10 @ 12:32
Comment from: Jim COULTHARD [Visitor]
I said a 50 per cent chance Wie would make the cut. It's hard to say what effect the wind will have. Certainly Michelle has local knowledge, but the other golfers have greater strength--and a lot will depend on whether the conditions when she plays are better than or worse than average.

ALEX Records are certainly kept which allow one to determine how many strokes a person misses the cut. I would like to see that information listed. It would be useful when looing at players who miss a lot of cuts.


2006-01-10 @ 12:37
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Jim C, I misstated your position on the probability Of Michelle making it through the "Q" school. You did not say it would be the easiest method for her to obtain a PGA tour card. You said it would be the least difficult. There is a considerable difference. Jim, I just don't think that you realize how accomplished these aspiring young pros are. I checked my program from the recent "Q" school in Orlando. The courses played were Panther Lakes at 7,369 yards and Crooked Cat at 7,411 yards. The weather was somewhat blustery and the greens were extremely fast. Each course had one par five well over 600 yards and each had several par 4's close to 500 yards. The rough was at least five inches high. These young guns literally took these layouts apart. The medalist, J.B.Holmes, scored all six rounds in the 60's, finishing at 24 under. Holmes. a 23-year-old recent U of Kentucky grad, and every bit as much a prodigy as Michelle ever was, fought his way through two prior four-round qualifiers to make the final field of 165. On the holes where nearly all the players were hitting driver, I can't remember any drives of less than 300 yards. Several times after a threesome teed off, the guy at 320 yards was hitting first. And these were on fairways that were relatively flat or even slightly uphill. It is humorous at times to read how a teenage girl of slender stature with an average driving distance of possibly 280 is going to compete with these bombers. About twice a year, I am a spectator at pro events, once at a pga tournament, the other at an LPGA event. My next PGA event will be the Memorial on May 29. The differences in the two types of game are marked. I like watching the women, however, compared to the men's game, the ladies' tournament is like golf in slow motion. As far as the PGA seeding someone like Michelle into the "Q" school final, there is virtually no chance of that happening. There is a clearly defined method of seeding which favors those who have qualified previously, former PGA event winners who have used up the exemptions, etc.
2006-01-10 @ 13:06
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Alex,
I certainly don't want to underestimate the quality of the players at q-school.

You have listed some very impressive stats about the layout of the course and how difficult it was.

I would ask you to do one thing though. Watch the Sony Open. Actually you don't even need to watch it. When it is over take a look right through the leaderboard and check how the q-school grads got on. In fact I will do this for you. After the Sony Open, I will tell you just how the rookies performed at the Sony Open.

I think this will give a true reflection of exactly what standard they are at. I don't want to understate their achievements, they have done tremendously well. There will also be 3 or 4 of them who do quite well this season. However the majority of them, will be back at q-school next year.

If Wie improves her game, to be able to do well on the pga tour, then q-school should be achievable. We all know she needs to keep progressing though.
2006-01-10 @ 13:24
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Just on the 320 yard thing, Michelle has driven that far on occasion, but neither Michelle, nor the grads will hit that far regularly, nor do they need too.

MW will give up some distance to some of the pga, that is for sure, but none of them will be averaging anything like 320.

If she could build to an average of 290, that would have her ahead of Monty and other very successful pros.
2006-01-10 @ 13:27
Comment from: Asia_Guy [Visitor]
Got it Jim, a fifty percent chance of rain. The Florida TV weatherman's prediction. Maybe she will and maybe she won't. No bragging rights for you on an even bet.

Norman says.... well I think it is "No" she won't make the cut. Can anyone translate Kipper English here? The Brits hate to offend anyone. Sorry Michelle.

Under Par gives her a one in three chance, so that will go into the books as a "No".

Patrick is down for a "No" with some prayers involved to go the other way. Divine intervention is not out of the question Patrick. My Parish Priest assures me "God is a Golfer and that is why He invented the Scots". He might be biased, as he is a Scot.

Alex must be fleecing clients of $450 an hour. But I think we can safely speak for him; he is a "No", "No Way" or "Not a Chance in Hell". I just have a feeling, I don't know why.

We haven't heard from June or Ronnie for awhile, so we will give them a little more time to respond when they get back from Alex induced therapy.
2006-01-10 @ 13:30
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Asia--Guy, In response to your poll, I do not think that Michelle will make the cut, and here are my reasons for my opinion. She hasn't as yet made a cut in a men's event whereas all the other players have accomplished that deed. It will be too much for her to overcome in the departments of strength abd intestinal fortitude. Two things in her favor are the facts that it is one of the shortest courses on tour at 7,060 yards and that she has a lot of familiarity with the course. In the unlikely event that she does make the cut, she will not finish in the top 50. Since about 140 golfers are entered, the odds on any player making the cut are about 50-50. Even so, I think that Under Par's prediction of 35% in favor of Michelle making the cut is too generous. That would be aout 2 to ! odds whereas I would want at least 3 to 1 if I were making that wager. Maybe one of our posters from the UK can tell us if Ladbroke's or one of the other betting houses has a line on that proposition. Someone said previously that Michelle was 500 to 1 to win the Sony.
2006-01-10 @ 13:34
Comment from: Patrick [Visitor]
I stated no, she will not make the cut, because current conditions on Oahu are not as "nice" as stated in those golf weather reports. Today, the winds were gusting at about 25mph at one point and these are similar to the winds that were present in last year's Sony. maybe she's learned how to hit those "stinger" shots, and maybe she will have a chance, but based on her performances in not-so-perfect conditions, the odds are against her....
2006-01-10 @ 13:39
Comment from: Asia_Guy [Visitor]
Norman driving or greens in regulation are not Michelle's problem on either tour. Her problem is sinking the six to ten foot putt with consistency. Closing the deal on the green is not her strong point.

That is why Paula, Annika and Tiger are at the top, they close the deal on the green.

At LPGA tour events she is using a sand wedge on most par fours for a second shot. On the PGA tour par fours she is hitting five or six irons and putting it on the green regulary.
2006-01-10 @ 13:49
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Asia_Guy,

My answer on your poll is YES she will make the cut.

I think I am the first on this blog to predict that she will make it.
2006-01-10 @ 14:00
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Alex earlier talked about the way that I "qualify" my remarks.

Alex has done just the same thing.

He says that he thinks she won't make the cut, but then he goes on to make excuses as to why if she does make it, that it really isn't much of an achievement anyway.
- home course familiarity.
- short course.



Here are some odds at one particular bookmaker:

M Wie to make the cut 2-1

M Wie to finish last including ties 11-4

M Wie to finish in the Top 20 including ties 16-1

M Wie to finish in the Top 10 including ties 33-1

M Wie to finish in the Top 5 including ties 80-1

M Wie to get a hole in one in the Tournament 200-1

M Wie to win the tournament 500-1

2006-01-10 @ 14:04
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Asia Guy said:
Norman driving or greens in regulation are not Michelle's problem on either tour. Her problem is sinking the six to ten foot putt with consistency. Closing the deal on the green is not her strong point.

That is why Paula, Annika and Tiger are at the top, they close the deal on the green.
****************************

Mentioning Paula in the same context as Tiger and Annika is not very correct in my opinion. I know Ronnie would probably agree with you, but I don't.
Paula Creamer is NOT at the top, as you and Ronnie would like to think. She is merely near the front of a chasing pack, which is way behind.

As regards driving and GIR, I agree these are not her problem, but they hide a big problem.
A high GIR percentage is nice to have, but it is also important where on the green your ball is, when you do hit the green in regulation.
It is very different to have a 5 foot putt or a 50 foot putt, but they still both count for one green in regulation.

Where Michelle actually lands the ball on her approach shot is a problem. At mens events she has been way below the average for her birdie putt length.
So although, her putting hasn't been great at times, that isn't the full story.
2006-01-10 @ 14:16
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Asia Guy,

Michelle Wie's Average Birdie Putt (shots that the green was hit in regulation) at Sony Open:

Year Length
2004 33 ft 8 in
2005 37 ft 6 in

Those average birdie putt lengths hardly give much chance of birdies. The field, I think were about half that distance on average.
2006-01-10 @ 14:19
Comment from: stone [Visitor]
Norman I always enjoy your thoughts and opinions, but you flip-flop more than a politician in an election year. One day you say you fear she will not the cut, the next day you think she has a good chance, on cloudy days you have a bad feeling about her making it, on sunny days she's in. You wouldn't be picking her to make the cut based on the fact that nobody else has. More I told you so's for you if she makes it and no consequences if she doesn't since she is still so young, inexperienced and whatever other excuse is en voque this week. I say we all make a pact to treat Michelle equally and fairly. If she makes the cut let us recognize it for what it is a tremendous accomplishment--no talk of weak fields or homecourse advantage just a great display of golf. On the flip side if she does not make the cut lets put away the excuses of age, gender, inexperience, weather or what have you and treat it for what it is another failed attempt to make the cut on a tour which she is simply not yet ready to handle. what do you think, a discussion without qualifications or excuses, lets all give it a shot remembering also that one golf tournament does not a career make or break.
2006-01-10 @ 14:32
Comment from: Asia_Guy [Visitor]
Patrick I was reviewing the marine, aviation and NWS reports for Oahu along with the NWS long range forecast that I posted above.

It appears the winds are from the E/NE with the leeward side of the Island getting some high surf advisories and gusty winds. What area of Oahu do you live in Patrick? The waves at Sunset must be kickin man.

From what I remember of playing Waialea many years ago, an east wind will help everyone on the long par fives and some difficult par fours. It would come into play on some of the shorter par four or five holes and most of the par threes.

Number five was my hole from hell in high winds. Hit it high into the wind with a three wood and you watch the ball stall and fall into the first of two creeks crossing the fairway. I took more than my fair share of drops on number five.

Pstrick is still carried as a weather related "No" with hope.

Alex has mailed in "No" to the survey. Being the gambler he is, I just know he will drop at least a couple Ben Franklins down on the 500 to 1 odds. He needs a refill of Cubans in the humidor.
2006-01-10 @ 14:45
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
It will be interesting to see what impact Michelle Wie's presence will have at the Sony if she misses the cut. As our pseudo-Asian boat person has said, huge crowds are expected for the event and no wonder. The folks who run the event have put up what must be the lowest ticket prices on the PGA tour. How low? Try $10 per day if bought in advance, $15 per day at the gate. And get this, $50 for an all-week gate pass! I like it. That way, virtually anybody can attend a quality event. Maybe the catch will be the price of parking and concessions. Then again, those things are always pricey anyway. In contrast, the tickets to the Memorial are $30 per day for the PRACTICE rounds with no single day tickets for the four days of the tournament to be sold. Weekly gate passes for the grounds are $155. My wife and I have been invited to one of the hospitality tents and pavilions which are gratis. However, the suggested charitable contribution is 10% over the price of the weekly grounds pass per person. At $400, seven days of PGA action in a first-class, comfortable setting for two people is one hell of a bargain.
2006-01-10 @ 15:30
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Actually, I'm going to alter my prediction: I only give her a 20% chance of making the cut.

Under Par has spoken.
2006-01-10 @ 15:48
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Stone,
In my opinion, she will make the cut.

I am still entitled to voice weather concerns. I know that conditions will affect play and I know it will probably affect hers more than most, but my prediction is that she will make it.

As regards your suggested formula of "lets say it's great if she makes it and dreadful if she doesn't, I cannot buy into that system.

If she misses the cut, it matters greatly to me, the manner in which it happens.
2006-01-10 @ 16:01
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Under Par,
I'm giving her a 52.322% chance of making the cut.
2006-01-10 @ 16:03
Comment from: Ronnie [Visitor]
Michelle Wie will miss the cut.

Round 1: 72
Round 2: 75

She will miss the cut by 8 strokes.
2006-01-10 @ 18:33
Comment from: Patrick [Visitor]
I think Michelle will do better than 8 strokes, but I still think she won't make the cut. Although she has come a long way since last year, I still think that our very inconsistent island weather and the amount of pressure that's on her will weigh in. She likes to say that she does not feel any pressure at all, but from past experiences, I would have to disagree.

From local "gossip" around the town, Michelle has played Waialae a fair amount (she's not a member) and I believe that her average score at waialae was 69...1 under par with some rounds ranging from 65 and 64 to about 76 and 77. That's just 1 under par without the PGA set-up. With the tough PGA rough and greens, I'm sure her average score would kick up two-strokes at least...
2006-01-10 @ 19:30
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Patrick,

Don't forget the tough PGA pin placements. I have to assume that they'll be situated differently during the event.
2006-01-10 @ 23:30
Comment from: Patrick [Visitor]
Yes...those killer pin placements are what got her into some trouble last time around.

BUT ALL THE BEST WISHES MICHELLE!
2006-01-11 @ 03:19
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Under Par, I see by the brevity of your last post, that you've got the message from Norman, the board captain, to keep predictions succinct and on topic, with no parenthetical remarks or asides. I accept my chastising and hereby, with hat in hand, repeat my prediction: Michelle Wie WILL NOT make the cut in the 2006 Sony. Now, Under Par, I believe that your assessment of Michelle's chances of qualifying for the weekend as 20% are just about right. The oddsmakers in the UK and the Caribbean have posted the line at 2 to 1. These fellows never lay the proper odds, they always shorten the risk. Then we have what's known as the "vigorish" or the "juice" which oddsmakers typically calculate as 10% to 20%. So the true odds against Michelle making the cut would be about 3.5 or 4 to 1. All the rest of the propositions as listed by Norman are nothing but "sucker bets" since they will all be losers unless Michelle does in fact make the cut.
2006-01-11 @ 10:02
Comment from: Asia_Guy [Visitor]
I'll go along with the caddy report (caddies out pacing off and logging the course in advance of the tournament ended up being a good portion of her gallery during practice rounds) and their predictions are hot off the Coconut Wire:

Michelle will end up under the cut line by at least three strokes.

Michelle will end up with a final four round score that places her somewhere in the middle of the final day field.

Now Alex, under par or Norman, before you write anything, let me just say, these predictions are more optimistic than I would have made. But I will defer to their experience and jump on the bandwagon with them.

This same group has been keeping an eye on another golfer in the field and predicts he will end up in the top ten on the final day. The Player? Jason Gore who is hot off four dismal rounds at the Mercedes. The word on Jason is the usual smile has been replaced with a game face and his second shots on some of the par fives are made with nine irons. He is flat out crushing the ball.

Well, I will now batten down the hatches, secure the mooring lines and wait out the Typhoon of abuse coming in from the East after signing up to these predictions.

2006-01-11 @ 14:01
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Asia,

Do you mean "experience" like that possessed by silly Philly Mickelson, who said Sorenstam would finish about twentieth at the Colonial?

Hey, Alex, how many Alans did ol' Phil get for that?
2006-01-11 @ 14:19
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Asia--Guy, What did your connection have as a line on the Titanic against the iceberg? I remember being told by an old, inveterate horseplayer that the worst information one could get on a race was in the jockeys' locker room. On the other hand, maybe the boys do know something and putting a double sawbuck on Michelle to make the cut might not be a bad idea. You're not a shill for any gambling sites, are you?
2006-01-11 @ 14:26
Comment from: Asia_Guy [Visitor]
The blow is coming in hard now and the waves are crashing over the gunnels.

Hold on mates we haven’t hit the eye wall yet. There is far more to come.
2006-01-11 @ 14:36
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Under Par, Since Phil is a pro, he could only receive honorable mention and a meritorious service award.His comment was noted in the yearbook, however.
2006-01-11 @ 15:00
Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Yes, Alex, he's a golf professional, but is he a professional in Stupidity?
2006-01-11 @ 17:16
Comment from: Alex [Visitor]
Did you guys catch any of the Golf Channel's PC drivel about the chance of Michelle making the cut at the Sony? Mark Rolfing and Joe Ogilvie were asked their opinions, and of course they responded predictably. I've never seen two more fawning, brown-nosing sycophants. Norman would have been proud.
2006-01-11 @ 23:24
Comment from: jon [Visitor]
Asia Guy. Could you do me a favor. I have been following your blogs. This thread is getting old. Could you please update your caddy report on newer thread with Ron Mon, Shanks or Mario? Would really appreciate it.
2006-01-11 @ 23:48
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Alex said:
Did you guys catch any of the Golf Channel's PC drivel about the chance of Michelle making the cut at the Sony? Mark Rolfing and Joe Ogilvie were asked their opinions, and of course they responded predictably. I've never seen two more fawning, brown-nosing sycophants. Norman would have been proud.
*******************************

Pity I missed it so.
2006-01-12 @ 13:52

Comments are closed for this post.

Dates: January 5, 2014 - December 20, 2014
An ideal getaway for golf buddies includes a spacious suite, incredible golf experiences and SUV rental to enjoy Maui's panoramic ocean views from all angles. It includes four rounds of golf at each of the Wailea Blue, Wailea Gold, Wailea Emerald Courses (12 rounds of golf), Two-Bedroom, Two-Bath Oceanfront Suite for 5 nights/6 days at the Beachfront Makena Surf Resort and 5-day Sport Utility Vehicle (SUV) rental.
Price range: $5445