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63 comments

Comment from: Paul [Visitor]
I'm no psychologist, but my 2 cents is that it's better for her to struggle to meet her goals, than to succeed too quickly. You often learn more from failure than success (not that I would call missing the cut by 1 a failure for a 16 year old girl at a professional men's event).

It must be hard for her to deal with all the people who seem so anxious to attack her everytime she "chokes". I agree she had a meltdown at the US Open, but I don't see the missed cuts at the men's events as chokes. It's no big deal for a man to miss the cut on his first several PGA tries. Didn't Tiger miss his first seven cuts? Why do we all expect her to do better than the best men did when they started?
11/28/05 @ 10:20
Comment from: Shanks [Member] Email
Glad you brought up that point, Paul. The difference between Wie's experience and Tiger's is that at the same time Tiger missed those pro cuts, he was also winning against his peers. Wie will have no such emotional and mental reinforcement. I'm not saying she's doomed - like Baldwin - but I'm saying there is some real risk here.
11/28/05 @ 10:33
Comment from: Paul [Visitor]
Hopefully she can gain solace from the successes she has had in the last year in the LPGA. Yeah she hasn't had a win, but 3 2nds and a third ain't chopped liver and her 2005 record was a significant improvement over 2004. She also did well at the men's Publinx. Beyond that she seems to have a strong support network.
11/28/05 @ 11:02
Comment from: Paul [Visitor]
One more point (sorry, don't mean to monopolize the discussion), again I'm not a shrink, but it seems to me the most motivating thing in the world is just missing (such as at the Casio and her 2nd place finishes). It's like getting 5 out of 6 numbers on the lottery; it's frustrating, but makes you want to try again.
11/28/05 @ 11:19
Comment from: Shanks [Member] Email
No doubt Wie will try harder - but when will she get past these emotional hurdles? Her overall performance has been amazing. But the way she is finishing is what is bringing up the questions.
11/28/05 @ 11:26
Comment from: alan [Visitor]
Shanks
There are obvious risks but she has now turned pro. This thing about playing against her peers is a thing of the past.
She made a conscious decision to take this path and she has to live with it.
I am sure that if things don't turn out well she will blame herself and no one else.
I am still convinced she will ultimately succeed on the LPGA and also do well on the PGA. Time will tell. After all she has only just turned 16!!
I think she is happy with her life as a pro golfer. Can you imagine being flow to Japan on a private plane, being the centre of attention and getting paid a vast amount of money.
She's enjoying every minute of it and that's what it is all about.
Who are we to say she is doing the right or wrong thing.
Alan M
11/28/05 @ 11:30
Comment from: Kerry [Visitor]

Actually, I am a psychologist LOL !

Paul you are right--people tend to learn more from failures than successes.

If winning comes too easily, it tends to sap one's motivation and the hunger to keep learning and getting better.
11/28/05 @ 11:46
Comment from: Shanks [Member] Email
Actually, I AM William Wallace .... er, sorry, that's another story ....
11/28/05 @ 12:45
Comment from: ToddCommish [Visitor]
The painful reality is that Michelle Wie has become a publicity stunt and an appearance fee monger. Her talent is unquestioned, but she is constantly being put into position to fail by her father and/or advisors. Why put a 16-year old through this? If you have a bright child, do you through them into MIT before they're ready? Sure, you might choose some advanced classes, but putting them in over their heads doesn't develop anything but consistent failure. There's a difference between challenging her (like putting her on the LPGA where she would be fighting to be in the top five) and burying her in the men's tour. It just seems like her father wants the money NOW, and is willing to sacrifice his daughter's potential for the quick payday.
11/28/05 @ 13:09
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Shanks, glad that you got a promotion! We need some more balanced writers who aren't just completely anti-Wie no matter what she does.

I'd like to address each of her supposed failures in turn:

- Women's US Open, very bad final round, like Paula Creamer and many others in the field. This was indeed a final day major stumble. However, I could name a Tiger final day stumble (tour champs 2004), as well as many by Retief and indeed all other top professionals. So I think everyone should be allowed a stinker of a final day at least once. It's not like she had the tournament in her grasp with a 4 shot lead on the field. There were about 10 golfers within 2 shots, so she was never the favourite to win.

- Sony Open 1st time, missing by 1 shot. I don't think anyone would say she suffered from nerves here, because she came from behind, and almost made it. An important point here is that when the round finished, she thought she had made the cut. She actually believed she was through, so on that occasion, she had the mental side to make the cut.

- John Deere, missed by 2 shots. Here she had a 1 shot cushion with 4 holes to go. This is only barely a stumble when all you had to spare was one shot over the cut line. She stumbled when trying to make her FIRST cut on the pga, while having just one shot to spare. Big deal, who wouldn't.

- Casio Open, missed by 1 shot. Coming up the 17th, Michelle was on the cut line. Therefore any mistake would be costly. In her mind she didn't even have a single shot to spare with 2 holes to play. Why wouldn't she be nervous. As it turned out the cut line went out a shot, so a par on the last would have been enough. Add to the equation, she was delayed 20 minutes at the start of the final tee. Hardly ideal.

- So what point am I making?
Basically, that it isn't black and white. She has had stumbles near the end, but she has never had a cushion.
It is my belief that she needs to develop her game to a higher standard where she has 3-4 shots to spare over the cut. Then, the pressure won't be so severe over the final few holes, knowing that any tiny mistake could ruin her chances.
11/28/05 @ 16:30
Comment from: Joe Cool [Visitor]
It is obvious that sixteen year old Michelle has absolutely no concept of money (as most 16 year olds) after saying..."But, even though I didn't make the cut, I did play two rounds of fun." It was reported that her appearance fee was $1,000,000...that is what the average american earns in 25 years! It seems that Ms. Wie still has the mindset of an amateur golfer ..."all a girl wants is to have fun." Hopefully, she will soon wake up and join the reality of her situation.
11/29/05 @ 11:07
Comment from: alan [Visitor]
Why not have fun and earn a million at the same time.
Michelle has already earned enough for a lifetime so why should care about money.
What is this reality you are referring to.
Alan M
11/29/05 @ 11:25
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Yes Alan, Joe Cool has it all wrong.

If Michelle were to take his advice and start treating the result as the be all and end all, she would be in serious trouble.

What Michelle needs to do for now, is gain experience and enjoy herself. If she retains that attitude, it will help her alot.

If she were to take winning as everything, she would burn out very quickly due to pressure. If she adopts her "enjoy herself" attitude, she will more likely have a successful career. It isn't like she doesn't want to do well. She has said the result makes her even more determined to work even harder. Her attitude is spot on.
11/29/05 @ 14:04
Comment from: Shanks [Member] Email
Thanks, Norman.

Your point you made about raising the level of her play 3-4 shots brought to mind 2 things. First, being that far ahead still doesn't solve the "nervous" issue. Even Tiger has close calls with the cut and winning in addition to the occasional runaway win. She'll have to deal with it eventually or it will consume her. I'm betting that eventually she will overcome it.

Second, I was wondering when was the last time that Annika missed a cut in a womens event. Wasn't that a few US Opens ago?
11/29/05 @ 16:09
Comment from: Joe Cool [Visitor]
Alan...Alan...Alan,
The reality I referred to is the fact that she is now a professional golfer. I have always admired her talent, but I think she could use a caddie that would be more persuasive in giving advice...like hitting a three wood on No.18 at Casio...hit a layup, then a wedge to the green. I think she is the only woman that can hit a driver and an iron on a 530 Yard par five...Annika can't even do that. I found it interesting that Annika was the only LPGA member that contacted Michelle after the Bumberger Debacle. I think Michelle will win three times on the LPGA tour in 2006. If conditions are good at the Sony, her chances are very good to make the cut. During her first try, some unknown shot a 62 (his lowest round ever) on the first day to set the cut line very low. Her second try, the wind was blowing between 25 and 30 mph which made it very difficult for all the golfers. I am fully aware how difficult golf can be since I have play on and off for forty five years and could only play to a ten handicap. Both you and Norman have a great Christmas ...oops, I mean Holiday Season!!
11/29/05 @ 19:28
Comment from: Mike A. [Visitor]
Shanks,

I'd like to make a few points on MW "just missing" the cut at the Casio, Sony, and John Deere that I haven't seen reported much anywhere.

The Casio cut was very generous compared to the normal PGA cut. The top 60 plus ties from a field of 98 made the cut. The normal PGA cut is the top 70 plus ties from a field of 144. That's a difference of roughly 12 players in a "minor" professional men's tournament. MW didn't cut it.

At the John Deere, only 4 players ranked in the top 30 on the money list were in the field, and only one-third of the top 100 since the tournament was held during the week prior to the British Open. The only thing that got her close to making the cut was a chip in for birdie on the 12th hole in the second round but MW didn't cut it.

In 2004, MW just missed the cut at the Sony, but in order to shoot her 68 in the second round, she had to save par 8 times while making 2 putts over 50 feet for birdie. She led the field in two categories...distance from the hole after approach which was over 33 feet and average length of putt. MW didn't cut it.

It seems to me that the only way MW is getting close to the cut is by being lucky or by playing in a weak field. How many times are you going to hole putts greater than 50 feet or chip in from off the green?

For what it's worth, I truly believe a woman can make the cut in a men's professional tournament. What I disagree with, is that Michelle Wie is "the chosen one". There are plenty of young talented female golfers out there who under the right circumstances could make the cut in a men's tournament.

MW has shown to have a good game on the LPGA tour but I don't think she is unique in that respect. She is part of the up and coming "Tiger generation" and thanks to lots of sponsor exemptions she has been able to play on the LPGA more often than other equally talented young female golfers.

My prediction for the 2006 Sony Open is that MW will miss the cut again and by more than one stroke.





11/30/05 @ 02:15
Comment from: alan [Visitor]
Mike
Michelle Wie obviously has the best chance of any woman simply because of her length of the tee.
Even Baldwin would agree that Wie will make a cut on the PGA.
She has made herself the chosen one.
Alan M
11/30/05 @ 11:24
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Shanks, about the 3-4 shots, I'm "hoping", that that will give her enough of a cushion, to ease the pressure of making that first pga cut.
My thinking is that, if you are coming down the stretch, knowing that one stray shot, could be catastrophic, that is alot of extra pressure.
By virtue of making a cut, I think the next cut, will be that bit easier, even if she only has a shot to spare, because she will no longer have the "first cut" pressure.

I'm not sure what is the relevance of you wonding when Annika last missed a cut?
11/30/05 @ 15:17
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Joe Cool said:
**************************
I think Michelle will win three times on the LPGA tour in 2006. If conditions are good at the Sony, her chances are very good to make the cut.
**************************

Now Joe, you are optimistic.
3 wins from 8 events would be great.
I don't think it will happen. Given that, except for Annika, nobody won more than 2 tournaments on the lpga tour this season & remember they are playing 20+ events. If Michelle gets a win, it would be great.

I think we agree on the Sony, if the wind blows, it really will make it difficult for her again.
I also agree, she has a good chance of making the cut. She knows the course and herself and Ernie will probably have their annual practice round together once again.
11/30/05 @ 15:28
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Mike A said:
***************************
It seems to me that the only way MW is getting close to the cut is by being lucky or by playing in a weak field. How many times are you going to hole putts greater than 50 feet or chip in from off the green?
***************************

Mike you are really contradicting yourself.
- On one hand you saying that she can only get close to making the cut by holing putts over 50 feet. However, that was just one occasion. If you watch her regularly, you will know that her putting is perhaps the weakest part of her game. She misses way too many short-ish putts.

As regards the whole argument of making cuts.
FACT: Tiger Woods missed his first 7 pga cuts. Michelle has missed 3 so far, so you really need to stop worrying so much. She has plenty of time, and so far, has done better than Tiger did in those first pga events. He missed by multiple shots and didn't even get a sniff of a cut.
Keep in mind, all the while, Tiger was winning tonnes of amatuer events, and still not able to get near a pga cut. It just highlights MW's achievements even more.
11/30/05 @ 15:45
Comment from: Paul [Visitor]
Mike's post makes me more optimistic about Michelle's chances at the Sony. I didn't realize she putted that well there in 04. Leadbetter said after the Casio event that a lot of the problems Michelle was having with putting were due to the fact that she was used to the greens in Hawaii which are different than everywhere else. Maybe she'll put better at the next Sony.
11/30/05 @ 17:17
Comment from: RRR [Visitor]
I was thinking back to what I was doing at 16 years of age and I believe my biggest problems in life were passing my driver's test and geometry.

I give Miss Wie much credit for her poise and determination in the events she does enter male or female. It is easy to forget her age when you watch her perform on the links. (I have putters older than her.)

I've been a golfer for over 40 years and I can count my sub par rounds on one hand. I could only dream of having a swing as powerful, fluid and smooth as Miss Wie's, yet she is still developing her skills with one of the most gifted golf instructors in the world.

One can rest assured that whatever event Miss Wie chooses to play in will have huge galleries following her every step while she performs with class. In a few years there will be a changing of the guard in Womens Golf and Miss Wie will be the dominant player in the field.

There are a few new players on the LPGA Tour that like to play golf with their mouths, Miss Wie does all her talking with her clubs.

By the way have you checked out who finished behind Miss Wie in the events she played in? I did and was amazed how many noted "Professional Golfers" were behind her in the field, including some World Golf Hall of Fame members.

I wonder how they felt getting their collective butts kicked by a 16 year old high school girl?















12/01/05 @ 04:34
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
NorCal Golfer, sorry, but I don't think Paula looks great there. She is good looking, but they aren't her best photos.

Paul, also take into account that the greens in Asia are completely different again. Some commentators were saying how difficult the greens are in China and Japan, because they are cut completely diffently to on the pga. They take some time getting used to which MW didn't have.
12/01/05 @ 12:41
Comment from: Paul [Visitor]
Norman,
Paula Creamer and Annika didn't seem to have problems getting used to the greens in Japan.
12/01/05 @ 15:02
Comment from: matt [Visitor]
Norman---you really need to put down the Michelle Wie flavored Koolaid. Comparing Tiger's accomplishments and early career path to that of Michelle's is insulting. She is to be commended for her talent and for her sometimes brilliant play in her narrow misses, but compare the two when she has 10 majors and a streak of 142 cuts made or better yet 1 win(at any level) or one cut made.
12/01/05 @ 15:38
Comment from: Joe Cool [Visitor]
Norman...your right! I forgot that MW could only play in 8 LPGA events in 2006. I think it is only a matter of time until she gets the confidence of making those four foot putts. This part of her game has cost her many times during the past three years. Go Michelle at the Sony!
12/01/05 @ 15:41
Comment from: matt [Visitor]
RRR---Michelle has done her talking with her clubs and what she has said is that she's Paula Creamers' b___h. No wins, No money(earned that is)and no nerves when the going gets tough. Before you annoint her the next great champion you might want to make sure the kid can win, something, anything.
12/01/05 @ 15:45
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Matt, well done, it looks like you have taken over the mantle as this weeks anti-Wie bashing chairman.

As regards comparing, Tiger to Michelle, it is not insulting to Tiger.
We compare her to Tiger because Tiger is the best. That is a compliment to Tiger. There isn't much point comparing someone to Jean Van de Velde, is there?

About Tiger's 10 major wins etc, I think it is a bit unreasonable to expect MW to have achieved this at this stage of her career.
What has been proved, is that MW has done better at this age than Tiger did at a similar age, and even a couple of years older.
That is pretty damn good considering how good he was and is.
Since you asked for 1 win. She won the 1993 US Amatuer Womens Publinx (adult), and a host of Hawaii state adult titles.

Matt insulted Michelle for NO MONEY EARNED. HA HA. How long has she been a professional?

12/01/05 @ 19:18
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Comment from: Paul [Visitor]
Norman,
Paula Creamer and Annika didn't seem to have problems getting used to the greens in Japan.
****************************

Paul, Annika is a player of massive experience, so I would expect her to be able to adapt to different greens.

Paula Creamer, did very well to adjust, although it must be pointed out that the women's green over there are easier than the mens (just as lpga are easier than pga).

Also putting is one of Paula's major strengths and Michelle's greatest weaknesses.
12/01/05 @ 19:21
Comment from: matt [Visitor]
Norman you got me. I admit my comments are fueled by pure jealousy. Oh to be 16 again with all the promise in the world, money, fame and a swing like the gods. I am just a little tired of people passing the torch to her from Annika before she has truly accomplished anything. Will it be hers one day, maybe, but lets let her earn it first.
12/02/05 @ 13:53
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Matt, I'm pretty excited about the prospect of Ai Miyazato.
Look at the way she is destroying the field at the lpga q-school.
7 shots ahead after 3 days.

She is going to be playing against the men on the Japanese Tour on the 15th December. That just brings so much interest for me and others.

I think that is why MW gets so much attention, because she is ambitious and it is so intriguing to watch. Admit it.

As regards the lpga, Annika very much still has the torch. It's just that the exploits on the mens tour get people really interested.

Also for Ai Miyazato, I'm hoping she makes the cut. People think MW fans, are against anyone else, but I'm certainly hoping Ai Miyazato does well.
Anyone know what her average driving distance is? Just wondering if she will be giving the pga a go next, if she makes the cut.
12/02/05 @ 19:05
Comment from: Sheryl [Visitor]
You know Karma is a B****!!

Morgan Pressel went off on Michelle Wie for "choking" away her lead at the US Women's Open and look what happened to her at the LPGA Q school qualifying....

She was in the Top 2 a couple of days ago, and now she's 11 shots back after shooting over par 2 days in a row...

That's why it doesn't pay to be cocky and arrogant-it always bites you in the ass later.
12/02/05 @ 20:19
Comment from: RRR [Visitor]
Having played golf in Asia for the past thirty years I can tell you personally about the greens Matt.

Imagine putting on a glass tabletop with bumps and hills. The normal five-foot putt for me in Guam is about six inches of stroke for a level putt (about the same in Hawaii). When I play in Japan it is three inches for an uphill putt of five feet. Any more stroke than this and you watch the ball roll off the green.

When the Japanese build a course they are quite sadistic with their approaches to the green and pin placements. They like to suck you in and slam the door.

I play courses in Guam or Hawaii and consistently score in the high seventies or low eighties in spite of the wind. When I play other courses around Asia I add about ten strokes to my average score, again consistently.

I noticed Miss Wie was using a Lob Wedge for her chips around the green. That gives you an indication of just how fast the greens were. Pull out a seven iron for a chip in Japan and you are chipping again from the other side.
12/03/05 @ 03:39
Comment from: RRR [Visitor]
During 2005 Miss Wie played a limited schedule and was in the field with Miss Creamer who played a full schedule in the following events. Miss Wie finished ahead of Miss Creamer in five out of eight events they both played in together:

(*** Denotes "Finished on top.")

SBS Open at Turtle Bay

***Michelle 2nd -6

Paula 40th +4

Safeway International Presented by Coca-Cola

***Michelle 12th -4

Paula 26th E

Kraft Nabisco Championship

***Michelle 14th E

Paula 19th +2

McDonald's LPGA Championship Presented by Coca-Cola

***Michelle 2nd -8

Paula 3rd -6

U.S. Women's Open

Michelle 23rd +12 (Shot 11 over final day)

***Paula 19th +10 (Shot 9 over the final day)

Evian Masters

Michelle 2nd -7

***Paula 1st -15

Weetabix Women's British Open

***Michelle 3rd -10

Paula 14th –6

Samsung World Championship

Michelle (Fourth place before DQ)

***Paula 2nd -10

This should put to rest any doubts about Miss Wie's ability to earn a living on the tour.






12/03/05 @ 07:19
Comment from: Shanks [Member] Email
I would not hesitate to say that anyone who doubts Michelle Wie's ability to "earn a living" on the LPGA Tour is a moron.

What I have written about is that which stands in the way of her reaching her full potential - which could be stratospheric. Wie already possesses the talent to win on the LPGA Tour and to make a cut on the PGA Tour. The only question remaining - in my mind - as she further refines this awesome talent is whether she can develop enough mental toughness to play well when the pressure is on. That is the only part of her game which looks like it belongs to a 16 year-old.
12/04/05 @ 15:00
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Her putting belongs to a 16 year old.
12/04/05 @ 17:47
Comment from: John Zedella [Visitor]
Women and girls cannot compete with men and boys in any sport or any other field of human endeavor requiring strength, agility and hand-eye coordination. Not in baseball, basketball, football, soccer, volleyball, track and field, swimming and diving, tennis, billiards or bowling, just to name a few. Why on earth would any sensible person think that MW or any female will ever be able to successfully compete against me on the PGA tour?
12/05/05 @ 11:19
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
John Zedella,
As regards the agility thing, you are completely wrong. In fact women have more agility & flexibility. Took a look at Wie's swing sometime.

The hand-eye coordination thing is wrong too, there is no reason why women shouldn't be as good as men in this regard.

Women cannot compete with men in brute strength games, like tennis, or contact sports like football.

However in a game like Billards, or bowls, there is absolutely no reason that women cannot compete with men.

The reason why women don't play with men in sports such as snooker etc. is because men play sports more traditionally. More men are brought up with it from a young age and therefore they will have all the best players, due to the volume of men who start young, versus the volume of women who start young.

Golf is a great debate, because some of it is due to strength. However Wie has shown, that she has nearly enough strength, and should develop the extra bit needed in the next few years, and be sure it is only a bit more she needs.
She's averaging about 270 yards, and Monty averages 280, Harrington 290 yards. So she just needs a little bit more to compete at the very top.

Whether she has the rest of the game, such as putting and short game is another matter. The strength part of her game is excellent.

If you put Wie's long game, and Creamer's short game together with Annika's mental strength, you would have a player that could compete now on the pga tour, showing women can compete with men at the highest level.
12/05/05 @ 11:41
Comment from: John Zedella [Visitor]
Norman, I know that Michelle Wie is a prodigy, but her victory in the 1993 US Public Links event is all the more amazing since she was born in 1989. I can say first hand that females do not possess the agility, physical or manual dexterity. or hand-eye coordination of males, especially after puberty. Nor do they have the same aggressiveness and competitive nature as their male counterparts. For this reason, women are not allowed in the combat arms of the US Army or Marines, i.e., infantry, artillery, armor, airborne, etc. It is axiomatic that the best test for the likelihood of something to occur is if that something has occurred previously. Since no woman has ever had even the slightest bit of success in an all-male sport like the PGA tour, the likelihood of Michelle Wie or any other female winning a PGA event or even placing in the top ten is practically nil. As witness, it will be headline news if and when Michelle or another woman MAKES A CUT on the PGA tour.
12/05/05 @ 16:17
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
John, you are making various assumptions that are just false.

MW has shown that she is able to mix it with the best men in the world at 14-15 years of age. No boy could do this.
Surely you don't think she should be winning on the pga tour at this stage. Tiger first won when he was 20 and she is no Tiger.

To show just how false your argument is, Annika possesses just about everything needed to compete on the pga tour, except strength. Wie is likely to have the strength, whether her game proves to be good enough is another matter.

If Michelle Wie, had Annika's mental strength, and Paula Creamer's putting, she could compete on the pga and do very well, maybe even win, at this stage.
12/05/05 @ 17:43
Comment from: John Zedella [Visitor]
Annika is a mature woman and is arguably the best female golfer in history, having won 66 times on the LPGA tour. After missing the cut by five strokes in the "04 Colonial in her only attempt at the Men's tour, she frankly admitted that she didn't have the game to play with the men and stated only half jokingly that she couldn't wait to "get back to the Women's tour where I belng." In the last two years, she has appeared in the "Skins Game" against various male pros. She was never a factor on any hole, neither putting for a skin or a half at any time in either exhibition. As for Michelle, there is a distinct possibility that she is as strong as she is ever going to be. Like many female sport prodigies who tend to reach their physical peaks early, she may well be in her "prime" right now. Yes, if MW had Annika's mental acuity and Paula's putting she'd be a world beater. And if I were tall, dark, and handsome, and had some acting and a good agent I'd be the second Clark Gable.
12/05/05 @ 19:19
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
The bit you are misunderstanding is, if MW had AS mental strength and PC putting, they are all womens attributes. They all came from women. And that shows that a woman can do it agains the men and that's the point.

MW has the potential to do it. Whether she does or not, I have the opinion that she has changed the mindset and if she doesn't get there some other girl will.

As regards Annika, she just is not strong enough, plain and simple.
Her distance of about 263 average drive and that comes from timing.
She really doesn't hit the ball very hard at all.
Annika's lack of strength particularly showed up when playing against the men, because they were able to hit shorter clubs, than her even if they were the same distance from the hole. Also playing out of the rough is a massive factor for strength.
That's why Annika couldn't get there, it's nothing to do with the quality of her game, just brute power.
Also her putting was woeful, that weekend.

As regards the skins, you forget to mention that she was a factor 2 years ago, winning some skins and finishing 2nd.
This year she didn't win any, but Couples didn't either, and Tiger only won one hole for about 4 skins I think.
It's very hard to win skins anyway. Tiger was beaten by Couples last year and Funk this year. Are they better than him? Nope.
12/06/05 @ 13:24
Comment from: John Zedella [Visitor]
Norman, By your own admission, Annika Sorenstam, one of the greatest if not the greatest woman golfer ever, does not have the strength to compete with men. I agree. But somehow you believe that Michelle Wie, a tall, willowy girl, about six feet tall and 130 pounds, will magically develop the physical strength in her hands, arms, shoulders and legs to challenge the big hitters on the PGA tour. And she not only will she have to hit with those big guns now extant on the tour, there are hundreds of young amteurs and pros coming up who will be at least as formidable as those now on the tour. If her "stage father" manager, BJ Wie, and the rest of her entourage had the sense that God gave a goose, they'd forget their "impossible dream" and gear MW's precocious talent toward the LPGA tour exclusively. On the ladies' circuit she could be a force for many years. There aren't enough sponsors exemptions available fpr MW to ever win enough money to make the big time. And even you will surely agree that she couldn't make the top thirty in the "Q" school.
12/06/05 @ 13:56
Comment from: george [Visitor]
Comment from: Sheryl [Visitor]

>> You know Karma is a B****!!

Morgan Pressel went off on Michelle Wie for "choking" away her lead at the US Women's Open and look what happened to her at the LPGA Q school qualifying....

She was in the Top 2 a couple of days ago, and now she's 11 shots back after shooting over par 2 days in a row...

That's why it doesn't pay to be cocky and arrogant-it always bites you in the ass later.
12/06/05 @ 14:23
Comment from: John Zedella [Visitor]
Morgan Pressel did succeed in making it out of the LPGA "Q" school. I think she finished about twelfth. My remark was that MW couldn't make it out of the PGA "Q" schoo.
12/06/05 @ 14:40
Comment from: george [Visitor]
** Comment from: Sheryl [Visitor]
You know Karma is a B****!!

Morgan Pressel went off on Michelle Wie for "choking" away her lead at the US Women's Open and look what happened to her at the LPGA Q school qualifying....

She was in the Top 2 a couple of days ago, and now she's 11 shots back after shooting over par 2 days in a row...

That's why it doesn't pay to be cocky and arrogant-it always bites you in the ass later. **

*****

Sort of how your silly comments bite you in the ass, Sheryl.

You really need to imbibe less Wie Kool Aid. Clearly you addiction to the Wie Kool Aid keeps you from thinking straight, if at all. It always helps to make sure you have the results of a tournament before you gloat.

Whisper to us, Sheryl Pasha: Did Morgan Pressel win her LPGA card at Q-School?

To be sure, Pressel wound up a distant T6. Yet Morgan still qualified to be a full-time pro, with exempt status, at some point in 2006.

Much to your dismay.

-George
12/06/05 @ 17:52
Comment from: alan [Visitor]
John Zedella
Who reaches their physical peak at 16? That is ridiculous. Anika has got considerably stronger in the last couple of years and she is in her thirties.
Next year Wie will add 10 yards to her drive.
Alan M
12/06/05 @ 18:26
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
John Zedella said:
***************************
Norman, By your own admission, Annika Sorenstam, one of the greatest if not the greatest woman golfer ever, does not have the strength to compete with men. I agree. But somehow you believe that Michelle Wie, a tall, willowy girl, about six feet tall and 130 pounds, will magically develop the physical strength in her hands, arms, shoulders and legs to challenge the big hitters on the PGA tour..... There aren't enough sponsors exemptions available fpr MW to ever win enough money to make the big time. And even you will surely agree that she couldn't make the top thirty in the "Q" school.
*******************************

Yes Annika doesn't have the strength. Wie has already shown that she has strength to hit it nearly far enough. In fact, at the moment she can hit it far enough to make a cut on the pga tour. If she sorted out her putting (nothing to do with strength), she could have already made a cut with shots to spare.

Also her 6ft willowy figure, gives great potential for future strength as she bulks up a bit more. She is very slight as it stands. She will no doubt get more muscle.

I hope you appreciate, that she is nearly there strength wise. She averages about 270 yards. Monty averages 280 yards. Harrington 290 yards.
If she got up around Monty, why wouldn't she compete (provided her putting improves).

As regards a PGA tour card. I agree that she wouldn't be capable of qualifying out of q-school at the moment. That doesn't mean she won't be able a few years down the line.
12/06/05 @ 18:47
Comment from: John Zedella [Visitor]
Get this guys, Norman wants a 16 year old girl (MW) to "bulk up" and "get a little more muscle"! It is to laugh!
12/06/05 @ 22:09
Comment from: Paul W [Visitor]
John, Girls/women do strength exercizes for a lot of sports and have for years. I'm not sure what is to laugh about that.
12/06/05 @ 23:49
Comment from: John Zedella [Visitor]
Paul, I have coached teens and young adults of both genders for many years. I am well aware of all the strength training methods in use. What I found humorous were Norman's choice of words. While virtually all the teen girls under my charge wanted to increase their strength and endurance, NONE ever wanted to "bulk up" or "add muscle". Incidentally, the sport I refer to is Track and Field, or Athletics as it is often called in Europe.
12/07/05 @ 09:38
Comment from: John Zedella [Visitor]
Alan, it is an established fact that females mature earlier and more rapidly than males. Any parent of children of both sexes knows this. In the sports of swimming and gymnastics, teenage girls are the world's best. Very often their perfomances decline in their late teens and early twenties. I personally have coached several girls whose personal bests were achieved in their junior years in high school. One girl in particular was a state champion 800 meter runner as a 16-year-old junior. Although she trained as diligently as ever, she failed to repeat in he senior year, actually failing to qualify for the final. She went on to compete in college where she was better than average, but never bettered her personal best run as a 16-year-old.
12/07/05 @ 10:42
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
So woman athletes hit there peak at 16 years old, John.
Tell that to Merlene Ottey.

Lots of women hit there peak physically in their 30's, not to mind maxing out in their late teens.

Helly Holmes won her only Olympic gold medals at the age of 34 in the last olympics (800 metre and 1500 metre double) after trying for years.

So that throws your 800 metre example out the window. You can always find exceptions, but generally women do not peak physically in their teens and when they do, it is due to lack of training, lack of hunger to continue, or distractions, thereafter.
12/07/05 @ 13:37
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
John Zedella said:
*************************
Get this guys, Norman wants a 16 year old girl (MW) to "bulk up" and "get a little more muscle"! It is to laugh!
*************************

Bulking up is easy for Michelle Wie. At the moment she is 6 foot tall, having grown rapidly. Naturally she would be skinny, having grown so much.
As her body adjusts to her height, it is only natural that she will put on some weight, delelop A LITTLE more muscle and get stronger.

She doesn't need to become a wrestler or anything.
12/07/05 @ 13:42
Comment from: John Zedella [Visitor]
Norman, to return to the premise of the likelihood or even the possibility of a talented, precocious, female teenage prodigy like Michelle Wie competing successfully against men on the PGA tour, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that these male pros are the "creme de la creme" of the sport, battle-hardened veterans like Woods, Els, Goosen, Phil, and Furyk, and lean and hungry newcomers like O'Hair, Gore, Scott, Byrd and Baddeley, just to name a few. Since Track and Field is my area of expertise, I'll draw an analogy based on the recent World Championships in that sport held in Helsinki last August, an event which I had the pleasure of attending. The best in the world of both male and female athletes competed. Of course, the performances of the women, while outstanding, did not compare with those of the men. The obvious differences in strength, agility, speed and endurance precluded any such happening. Upon returning home, I compared the results of the women's events at the WC's to those of the Boy's events at our state championships in 2005. In no event would any of the women who medaled in the WC's have even QUALIFIED for the finals in a high school boys state meeting. Bear in mind that the women performed on hyper fast surfaces under ideal conditions. I can verify these statistics if necessary, but believe me, they're factual.
12/07/05 @ 14:41
Comment from: matt [Visitor]
John--Don't bother discussing Michelle Wie with Norman. If Michelle wie were to retire today Norman would formulate an argument that she was the greatest golfer ever to live. He is in love with the thought of her, the potential, the ideal that he believes she represents. Sadly, she is all just potential, on the shoulders of a gawky, spindly teen norman has rested the weight of the future of golf. sad really.
12/07/05 @ 14:45
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
John, Matt is our resident self proclaimed Wie Bashing Chairman. If she were to win the Master's (which she almost definetely won't), he would say she was useless because other people have won multiple green jackets.

Now, for humour, just you including Gore in the "LEAN" gang, that was hilarious. I know it's just a slip, you don't really mean it.

I'm glad you mentioned your track and field as an example, because that really satisfied my point in my mind.
You said: that top class women would not be able to compete with high school boys.

To compare this to golf, that would translate that the best women golfers shouldn't be able to compete with high-school boys.
In fact a teenage girl, who has many years of maturing to do, both physically and particularly mentally is considered better than any boy her age.

So your athletes in their peak arn't as good as high school boys (far from their peak), yet Michelle is ahead of those boys with many years of maturing left ....
and in fact able to compete with the very best in the world if she:
1. improved her putting.
2. improved her nerve, coming down the stretch.
(neither of these have anything to do with physical strength or agility).

John, I have no doubt that you have immense knowledge of track and field, but I think you are overestimating the importance of brute strength in golf.

No need for you to verify your track and field stats, I believe you completely, because I agree that men are much stronger, and faster than women.
However golf involves, a long walk (as slowly as you want) and swinging a club to hit a ball.
12/07/05 @ 19:41
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
John, I just want to emphasise that I respect your opinion.
We both agree that men are much stronger.
We both agree that women will never compete with men for running times.
We both agree that women will never compete with men in tennis (involves speed and power).
We both agree that women will never compete with men where strengh or speed is important.

So what do we disagree on?
The definition of golf.
I think all we actually disagree on, is how much, "strength is a factor" in golf.
12/07/05 @ 19:47
Comment from: matt [Visitor]
I actually agree with Norman that brute strength is not the primary advantage men have over women in golf the advantages are a bit more subtle---the fast twitch muscles in the hands, affecting the short game, and the ability to hit the ball higher with more spin(Annika's real disadvantage). My contention all along has been that this is a pointless argument--Michelle Wie may make a cut someday in a men's tour event, she may even finish in the top 30 of said event, but she will never compete to win certainly not in a full field PGA Tour event and there is nothing wrong with that. She will, however win an LPGA tour event one day soon and that should be her focus, because without those validating wins she is nothing more than an overmarketed hype machine.
12/07/05 @ 22:59
Comment from: John Zedella [Visitor]
Norman, I left in that "lean and hungry" Jason Gore allusion just for your edification. You liked that one, eh? Concerning what appears to be your fawning adulation of Michelle Wie, my belief is that you are either a person who enjoys playing "devil's advocate" and thus your pseudo-chauvinistic defense of all things MW, or you have drunk too heavily of the aforementioned MW Kool-aid and thus you have morphed into a groveling MW sycophant. You may have even OD'd on the dreaded Kool-aid. If my latter assessment is true, my advice is to quit "cold turkey" before the MW fever becomes terminal.
12/08/05 @ 09:41
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Many thanks to John Zedella. It is always obvious when a person feels that they have lost an argument so they try to shift the focus away from the subject matter.

I'm glad you have seen fit to stop comparing golf with super fit athletes and tennis players. Hopefully you have learned something here.
12/08/05 @ 14:30
Comment from: James COULTHARD [Visitor]
GOLF and TRACK AND FIELD

Babe Didricksen was a great trak and field star and Olympic champion in the 1930s. But it was later after she switched to golf that she was able to compete with the top men in a sport. She had a respectable performance on the PGA.

NORMAN Are you sure it is Matt and not George who is the resident Wie Bashing Chairman?
12/10/05 @ 16:22
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Matt took over for that week. We hadn't actually heard form George for a little while, so I thought he might be handing over the job.

In any case I think George has taken the job back, and Matt has jumped to the Wie-warrier camp. We still haven't got his membership money though.
12/11/05 @ 11:11

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