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Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Shanks, we are pretty much in agreement. There are many factors in golf.

As you stated, many parts of the golf game are important.

Here is Wie under the important areas:
* Driving: she can drive the ball about averaging 270 yards off the tee and sometimes hitting over 300 yards. She could do with increasing this about 10-15 yards.
* Long Game: pretty good.
* Long irons: good, but not great.
* Short Game: chiping from bunkers or areas in around greens has improved dramatically. Has lots of shots that you would associate with much more experience players.
* Putting: very dodgy. This just needs plenty of attention.
* Confidence: has shown plenty of steel in competing with very high finishes where there was a pressure to do well. Also against men amatuers.
However, hasn't yet put away a tournament or made a mens cut. Most worrying incident was recent Casio Open.

Of the above, the confidence will probably improve in time. The putting is bound to with all the coaching she will be getting. The main point though, is that power isn't really MW's main weekness.
If Michelle Wie fails to make it on the pga, I don't think it will have anything to do with strength.

By the way, I don't presume that she will be able to compete with Tiger, Els etc. either. What I am hoping for is that she could gain a pga tour card. That would be great.
12/08/05 @ 18:33
Comment from: JoHn Zedella [Visitor]
Norman, If your fondest wish is for Michelle Wie to acquire a PGA tour card, perhaps you'd like to inform some of us how MW could accomplish this task. The most common method to acquire exempt status on the PGA tour is through the daunting "Q" school. Hundreds of aspiring golfers enter a 6-day tourney where the 30 top scorers become exempt. Another method is by the so-called "battlefield promotion", whereby a player winning three times in one season on the Nationwide tour receives a partial exemption. Of course, one must first get a card on the Nationwide tour, no easy accomplishment. Another method more rare than either of those is by winning the Men's US Amateur and receiving seven sponsors exemptions and winning more than $700K in those events. Tiger did just that ten years ago, and Ryan Moore did it this year. MW is a pro so she couldn't go that route if she wanted to. If a player has a series of outstanding seasons on the European or Asian tours, he is occasionally granted temporary status on the Big Tour. So tell us, Norman, which of these courses of action will Michelle take?
12/08/05 @ 19:19
Comment from: jon [Visitor]
I agree. The guys in PGA are REALLY good. If you see them play in person, you realize just how amazingly skilled they are and just how tough the competition is. Comparing pga with any other tours (at least to me) is like comparing minor league baseball to MLB.

Any women, how good and talented they may be, has almost an impossible task against competing against PGA players. There are just no real training grounds to fully prepare her for PGA. Nationwide may help, but again, the level of competition just pales compared to PGA.

Which to me bring me back to MIchelle Wie. She has tremendous obstacles stacked against her, if she wants to fulfill her stated desire to play in "Masters." Few things in her favor are her youth, her support structure (coaches, handlers, money, parents, etc) and last but not the least her "Swing."
She has physical potential to compete against men (it seems being able to hit 300+ yards is a prerequisite to being a male golfing professional these days) What makes her exciting is HER SWING. I don't know any other women who can hit like that. What intrigues me is whether she can master the mental aspect of PGA. She has the "Swing' and with her work ethics she will doubtlessly improve her techniques. It is the mental maturity that I am looking for in her. Lastly, she is also plesant to look at when she is hitting the ball and even when she isn't. I wish her well and will root for her. I know how difficult her task will be.

12/08/05 @ 20:10
Comment from: Paul W [Visitor]

I assume she would try to go the Q school route in a few years after she improves her game and has some wins on the LPGA. It wouldn't cost that much for her to try in time or money. She could try it for a few years and simply stay in the LPGA if she fails. If she succeeds one year, she should play a season or two and see what happens. I'm not sure how long she would want to play in the PGA, since she would likely be trading being one of the top players on the LPGA for being back in the pack on the PGA.
12/08/05 @ 21:22
Comment from: Vernon W [Visitor]
What a great relief this blog is! After just reading another article on Travelgolf.com, this article has such great intelligent, insightful comments, both in the article and the comments. My congratulations, Shanks!!

I agree with almost all the comments. While I am a great fan of MW since she was 11, I have serious doubts of whether she will be able to compete regularly on the PGA. I expect that she will eventually make a cut, but to seriously contend against the best of the PGA, will be difficult. But I have to respect her for even trying. Unfortunately, her length is between the PGA and the LPGA. I am sure she rarely uses her driver in the LPGA and uses a wedge on almost every 4 par hole. I think she is smart enough to know that her bread and butter will be on the LPGA. The Asian and European tournaments will also want her.

One barrier MW faces is her beautiful swing. Technically, it is almost flawless. But it relies mostly on speed to make up for her lack of strength. Under pressure, any small flaw in her timing will result in a "bad" stroke. Hopefully, she will solve her short putting problem. It has to be mental. Meanwhile, isn't she a joy to watch?
12/09/05 @ 02:59
Comment from: j [Visitor]
Yes, Wie is a joy to watch!!!
But not Morgan... Morgan is a crying machine.
12/09/05 @ 04:45
Comment from: John Zedella [Visitor]
J, Vernon W just finished congratulating everyone on the good sense being exhibited on this article and the subsequent comments. Why then did you have to add your blurb about your distaste for Morgan Pressel? Your feelings about Ms. Pressel are not germane to Mr. Shanks' article, and have absolutely nothing to do with the commentary.
12/09/05 @ 09:17
Comment from: matt [Visitor]
John---words like germane and, "if" and "it" for that matter are not going to mean much to our friend j. Based on another post where j said and I quote, "u r such a loooooser" I'd say our friend is about 12. You really want to see some first class crying watch Michelle finding out she was disqualified from her first pro tournament for an illegal drop, now that is a crying machine and that was just Michelle, think abou the tears in the eyes of her handlers and sponsers.
12/09/05 @ 10:50
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
John Zelda, I agree the comments, were pretty good up until the point where j brought down the tone.
However, Matt has brought the tone down much further, with his Wie bashing. Doesn't he think 16 year old girls should cry? If anyone tuned into the WWE, a few weeks ago, you would have seen plenty of grown men bawling their eyes out.

12/09/05 @ 12:00
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
John Zelda said:
Norman, If your fondest wish is for Michelle Wie to acquire a PGA tour card, perhaps you'd like to inform some of us how MW could accomplish this task.

* If she were to get the maximum 7 sponsors invites and make enough money to be in the top 125, she could be a member. That isn't very easy though in just 7 events.
* Q-school, extremely difficult as you said.
* I could go into lots of other ways, but the point is, no matter what way she does it, it will be extremely difficult.

In my opinion, over the next few years, Michelle will try to win enough money in sponsors invites to get a tour card, but most likely fail.
She will try to get her tour card at q-school but probably fail. She will probably even fail to get through sectional qualifying to begin with.
It will be a gradual process for Michelle, just like it is for any other golfer. However, the main different is, that any little stumble she makes will be analysed and many people will be enjoying and loving any stage in her career where she doesn't break through to the next stage.

So, basically, if she eventually gets a tour card, it won't be for quite some time, so many people will be able to enjoy knocking her efforts between now and then.
12/09/05 @ 12:21
Comment from: matt [Visitor]
Norman---I was just joking around with our young friend j. Talk about bringing the level of a conversation down and I.Q. as well--did you just mention the WWE, isn't that pofessional wrestling. Norman I have enjoyed your comments and while we tend to disagree I have always listened to your points and tried to respond respectfully and thoughfully, until now. I beleive there is in the by-laws of this Blog a clause which requires that you be removed immediately, here it is, article 4 section 2a, "anyone who uses/cites professional wrestling in a golf forum should be banned for the term of life for their poor taste and low iq." Sorry Norman it was nice knowing you, I'm sure you can find a blog where you can debate whether or not pro wrestling is real.
12/09/05 @ 12:40
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Matt, sorry you are wrong, it is not professional wrestling, it is fake wrestling.
Now, the reason I used that example was because I heard on the news that a very famous professional wrestler had died, his name escapes me. The point I was making is that a whole heap of big massive muscle bound men started talking about his life and how they missed him and they were all bawling their eyes out.
If they can cry so can Michelle.

Matt said
Norman I have enjoyed your comments and while we tend to disagree I have always listened to your points and tried to respond respectfully and thoughfully, until now.

Does that include another one of these blogs a day or two back when you called me a wan*er?
12/09/05 @ 13:43
Comment from: matt [Visitor]
Just having some fun Norman. Things would be dull around here without you. I do apologize about the wan*er comment. Anybody who so intelligently and passionately defends Michelle can't be all bad. We just happen to disagree about how to achieve, measure and handle success. Maybe we should try to find something we can agree on...any thoughts.
12/09/05 @ 14:22
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Apology accepted Matt.

We could agree that Creamer is hot!

I like the look of Creamer, but I admire Wie's ambition. .... oh no there's another argument!!!!
12/09/05 @ 16:13
Comment from: matt [Visitor]
Agreed. Paula is an attractive girl. Don't tell anybody, but I kind of admire Wie for her lofty goals and aspirations. While I'm in a good mood I would also say that she has handled all the scrutiny extremely well. There will always be people out there who will criticize her every move and hope for her to fail, I know what you must be thinking but I am not one of those people, just someone who sees some potential obstacles in her pre-ordained rise to stardom.
12/09/05 @ 23:50
Comment from: j [Visitor]
Matt, sorry.
But your writing about Wie wasn't nice. I think it is important to do
best for your life. That is Wie's will. She is not harm to anyone!!!
12/10/05 @ 08:08
Comment from: John Zedella [Visitor]
After perusing j's attempt at an apology, I believe that those of us on this board who have not imbibed of the Wie Kool-aid, secifically Matt, George, and myself, should cut j some slack. j probably isn't necessarily young, ignorant or stupid. He has, however, succumbed to the Wie indoctrination. It is apparent that English is not his native language.
12/10/05 @ 11:31
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
John, there is a difference between "not imbibed of the Wie Kool-aid" and, just plain jealous and afraid that your perceptions of what golf is, might be changed.
12/10/05 @ 11:42
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Here is a copy of a document smuggled from the anti-Wie camp. It
contains their code of conduct:

All Anti-Wie-ners must abide by these rules:

- If Wie has any achievement such as high finishes in a major, completely rubbish this, but if any other player does the same, praise this as a wonderful achievement and almost a win.
- If Creamer wins a tournament in Japan, glorify this as an amazing event, but not too much, because we need to keep in mind if Michelle is to do the same, we will need to rubbish this and say that only proper lpga events count.
- If Wie nearly makes a pga cut. Discount her age. Discount the fact that she is playing against pros, many for 20 years. Dismiss her performance, and always maintain that missing the cut by 1 and missing by 100 are the exactly the same thing.
- Seek out players who have won amatuer titles, no matter how easy the competition. Say that those players are better than Wie. If it is proven that Wie has beaten those same players on the lpga several times, just say only wins count.
- Finally insult Wie for not playing amatuer events instead of majors. It may not make alot of sense for her to play an amatuer event instead of a major, but then again, what else in our rules makes sense?
12/10/05 @ 11:59
Comment from: John Zedella [Visitor]
Norman, you've made it abundantly clear that you believe Michelle Wie capable of playing competitively on the PGA tour. What you have not made clear is what circuitous route she will take to obtain a PGA tour card. Do you, or any other of the Wie Warriors on this board, think that any female besides MW has a chance against the men? Or has Michelle alone been anointed by the Golfing Gods? In another vein, although I do not have any biographic knowledge of poster George, Matt has said that he is an attorney, I assume a successful attorney. As for myself, I worked 50 years as a union steeplejack out of Local 867, District Council 6. I also had an avocation for more than 30 years as an assistant coach of Track and Field at my local high school, an unpaid, volunteer position. I served four years in the US Marine Corps during the Korean War and made the amphibious landing at Inchon and pulled 18 months of recon duty. I am now 75 years of age. For you or anyone else to imply that Matt, George , or I could ever be "jealous" of a !6-year-old girl is the height, or perhaps I should say the "depths" of folly
12/10/05 @ 12:39
Comment from: Paul W [Visitor]
Good find Norman! Funny it didn't contain the prime anti-Wie assumption.

- Wie is being minipuilated by her "handlers" to do everything possible to maximize sponsership money.
12/10/05 @ 12:44
Comment from: Johnny [Visitor]
Sorry, Paul I think that rule was contained on an amendments list. Unfortunately my sources haven't got a copy of it. Luckily yours have.
12/10/05 @ 13:55
Comment from: Johnny [Visitor]
Here is one that came on the amended list I got, to add to Norman and Paul's lists:

- anyone with dangly earlings playing the pga tour should be ridiculed because women are inferior to men.
12/10/05 @ 13:57
Comment from: Johnny [Visitor]
P.S. good point from John Zedella, the route for a girl to get a pga card would be rather a difficult one.
12/10/05 @ 13:59
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
John Zelda,
I haven't said that there is an easy route for Michelle to get a pga tour card.

At this moment, she has the potential to develop into a player who is capable of qualifying to the pga tour. For that she needs to improve her putting considerable, her mental side a bit, and her distance a little.

If she does the above, then she will be able to qualify for the pga tour, the same as anyone else does. If she is good enough she will get there the same way many of the q-school grads did this year or the nationwide grads or any other route. Being good enough is the key, the route is not.

In my opinion, she should continue as she is for the next couple of years. Play the 8 lpga events. Then play a couple of pga exemptions, not too many, and play some foreign events. She should build up her experience this way.

In my opinion, she should then try to qualify for the nationwide tour. There she would be playing against very good players, but not the very best. There she would have some chance of winning in time, and after a couple or a few years maybe finish high enough on the money list to gain a pga tour card (I think it is the top 12 that gain tour cards). She could also try q-school at the same time, which may end in failure but give more valuable experience.

I have never claimed that Michelle Wie will definetely qualify for a full time pga tour card or win events there. I have stated that it is my belief that she has the potential to do so. Many young men, who have the potential don't actually qualify at any stage of their careers. Hopefully Michelle will. If she continues to make the progress that she has in the last couple of years, then I think she will be very successful, and yes as regards getting a pga card.

Over the past couple of years, Michelle has gone, from just about qualifying for an lpga tournament, and missing the cuts, to just making the cuts, then to challenging. Last year she made the biggest progress of being right up near the top in 5 of 8 lpga tournaments, 2 of which were majors. Quarter finals of a mens amatuer event, and a loss to the eventual winner was a great achievement also. I think some people are completely underestimating just how far she has come.
Whether she continues to make progress and reaches the next level is something none of us can say for sure.
12/10/05 @ 15:17
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
John Zedella, on to your next question: Is there any others than Michelle Wie capable of pga success?

At this moment looking around the lpga, I don't think there are any definetes. The few who have decent length such as Sophie Gustafson, simply aren't good enough players.

Annika is not going to do it as I have said before.

Paula Creamer in my opinion will try to dominate the lpga tour. If she does this successfully and increases her distance, I believe she will probably test herself against the men, although not necessarily in the pga, but that is some time away.

The "others" are probably some young girls who are watching Wie on tv at the moment. It is my belief that she has been and will inspire many other girls to follow in her footsteps. Many people used to believe that women couldn't compete with men on a golf course. Many including yourself still do. However, it is my belief that Michelle Wie is breaking down some of those barriers that exist within people minds. Taking away the previous belief that it was not possible will be crucial in bringing the next generation of Wie's. Funily enough, they will probably be refered to as the Wie-warriers.
12/10/05 @ 15:27
Comment from: James COULTHARD [Visitor]
Good enough to qualify for the PGA is not the issue. Old enough is. She is not old enough. Next time, she could only qualify for the few events after her 18th birthday in October 2007.

So practically speaking, we need to wait until December 2007. Good enough? Some people downplayed her performance at the John Deere because so many of the best players skipped the tournament. Hardly any of the best players will be at Q school. The 6 rounds of Q school minimize the role of luck--but other than that making the cut even at a weak tournament would seem to be more difficult than making the top 30 at Q school. 6 rounds like her two at the John Deere might be enough to get through Q school, or at least come close.
12/10/05 @ 18:14
Comment from: John Zedella [Visitor]
Norman, I think that we should agree to disagree. I surmise by your liberal use of Briticisms, that you are of British extraction. I worked with a man by the name of Henry Cox for a number of years. He was an excellent rigger and high man; he was also the most stubborn and recalcitrant person in captivity. He was a native of Birmingham, UK. By your colloquialisms and your adamant refusal to recognize the obvious, I have pegged you for a Brummie. My second choice: you are a Liverpudlian. Third, you are Welsh. Are you still in Great Britain or are you on this side of the pond? On a side note, I knew two fellows, New Zealanders, who referred to England as "home" when neither had ever been there.
12/10/05 @ 18:49
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
John, I am afraid you are wrong about my nationality on all accounts.

As for stubborn, how about a man, who thinks, that a girl who turned 16 years old a couple of months ago's career is over. No hope. She might as well just give it up!!!!

You should try to contact the Wie family to let them know your opinion. As soon as they listen to your arguments, they will probably decide to chuck in the golf.

As regards agreeing to disagree, that is all well and good, but the fact remains that I have answered every one of your questions with plenty of reasoning.

You really need to get off your high horse and take a decent look at the facts.
MW at 16 is better, than a couple of female players at most, and is willing to TRY to compete with the top men in the world. She should be applauded, not knocked at every opportunity.
12/10/05 @ 19:54
Comment from: John Zedella [Visitor]
Norman, I think that some of your reasoning is skewed, but hey, that's just me. You've got to be Scottish or Irish since none of the others are correct.
12/10/05 @ 22:08
Comment from: James COULTHARD [Visitor]

We might kick you out of the Wie Warriors if you say things like "MW at 16 is better, than a couple of female players at most." That would make her one of the very worst golfers in the world.
Just kidding, I know what you meant--all but a couple of female players. Let's see how things work out for Michelle Wie. I look forward to the Sony, and then I guess she will play in the two LPGA events held in Hawaii the next month.
12/10/05 @ 22:25
Comment from: Paul W [Visitor]
Norman, I agree with most of what you have said about possible paths to the PGA except the posibility of going the Nationwide tour path. Q school may be a harder route, but it is something she can try without a huge impact on the rest of her schedule. To try the Nationwide tour path, she would have to play a full schedule to have any chance of being in the top 20. That means giving up a lot for a long shot.

Another issue with the Nationwide tour is whether it is capable of handling her. Even though the novelty of a woman playing against men will wear off, she would probably still attract a big crowd, especially if she has a chance of getting to the top 20 for the year (the cutoff for getting a PGA card). I've watched a couple of Nationwide events on tv, and they seem very low key with few fans in attendance. Some of them don't even sell tickets. Then again, they may be happy to get more attention and bigger crowds.

Maybe she'll try to join a men's tour in asia. Of course it's not a direct path to playing in the Masters but it would be a lucrative way to gain experience.
12/11/05 @ 09:00
Comment from: j [Visitor]
John Zedella,
Yes, English is my 2nd language.
- You said, " Hey, that's just me."
Is this mean you do not care about others opinions that have proofs?

12/11/05 @ 10:04
Comment from: John Zedella [Visitor]
Paul W, Your comment about MW attempting to play on a men's tour in Asia being lucrative should be forwarded to BJ Wie. On second thought, as greedy as BJ is, it it's lucrative he has doubtless already thought of it.
12/11/05 @ 10:09
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Paul, I take your point about the nationwide tour, and you are probably right.

Certainly the 7 exemptions on the pga tour to try to make enough money and q-school are the more likely options.
I also agree that maybe a stint in Japan would be good for her. I don't think it matters which route she takes, as long as her game keeps improving.

I think one thing is for sure, she won't be joining any tour in the next couple of years. She can pick and choose and get more and more experience.

I like James attitude of, lets just wait for the Sony & the next couple of womens tournaments in Hawaii. All of us here are really getting ahead of ourselves taking about years down the road. Plenty of us know that she is good enough to make the pga tour at some stage, but this won't be proven in the short term.

Go Wie at the Sony!
12/11/05 @ 11:06
Comment from: Paul W [Visitor]
John Z, unlike Norman, who's infinately more patient that I, I don't feed trolls.
12/11/05 @ 11:15
Comment from: John Zedella [Visitor]
My congratulations to j on his great progress in the English language. I won't bother to correct any slight mistakes in your grammar,j. It is obvious that you have had excellent instruction. You could, however, improve on your choice of idols as far as the game of Golf is concerned. Incidentally, it isn't important but what is your "first language?
12/11/05 @ 11:58
Comment from: Ronnie [Visitor]
Many thanks Norman for the amatuer summary.
I'm guessing that will shut up the guy who questioned her perfomance there.
Creamer is still possibly a better player than Wie though.
12/11/05 @ 18:05
Comment from: j [Visitor]
Zohn Zedella,
John Zedella,
My idol is Annika.
About Wie, I see her potential.
Wie's talent, combined with high motivation, will take her as far up as she wants to.
Where is your ancestors native land?
I learned that native indian americans are the true owner of USA.
By the way, thanks for acknowledging progress on my English.
One more thing no female golfers can be better than Annika.
12/11/05 @ 22:27
Comment from: Jhon Fazar [Visitor]
hello I'm Quite new may I interupt, I think Michelle Wie is the best female golfer.(my opinion)-and the big boys are just a fair game to her.
12/12/05 @ 06:48
Comment from: John Zedella [Visitor]
j, both my parents emigrated to this country, the USA, in the early 1900's. They came from Slovakia, which was then part of the Austro-Hungarian empire, the erstwhile Hapsburg dynasty. I have been to my ancestral "homeland" three times, most recently in May of this year for four weeks. My knowledge of and facility with the Slovak language is improving, but is not on a par with your English.
12/12/05 @ 10:13
Comment from: Jon [Visitor]
John Zedella

Give it a rest for crying out loud. It seems that you are trying to dominate this site with sheer quantity (not quality) of your comments. I don't even know what your issue is, except to bash Wie.

My feeling is that she will not join Lpga, Pga or any other tour for that matter, even if she could. She is afterall a 16 year old full time high scholler. Your seeming obsession with the way byh ch she will join PGA seems rather mute. She will probably continue to play professional golf part time the way she has been during summer and vacations. for the next few years she will probably do that till she either gets her game up to play PGA or will play LPGA. Only time will tell.

Try coming up with a more relevant and interesting issue next time, John Z.
12/12/05 @ 15:28
Comment from: John Zedella [Visitor]
OK Jon, Maybe you'll find find my postings more interesting when you discover the difference in meaning between "moot" and "mute".
12/12/05 @ 15:49
Comment from: jon [Visitor]
Freudian slip. LOL Maybe I really did want to say mute and not moot. Just to let you know, I also made a few typos too.

Big deal

Not trying for any literature awards with blogs.
12/12/05 @ 16:08
Comment from: John Zedella [Visitor]
Fair enough, Jon. One helpful hint from this past chief of the grammar, syntax, an spelling police. You used the phrase "rather moot". Moot, like unique, has no comparative or superlative form in normal usage. No big deal, just trying to help.
12/12/05 @ 23:04
Comment from: jon [Visitor]
OK. Fine. If you persists. Z, I still don't understand what you are trying to say. Z, syntax is not a person. It is a not a proper noun. You just cannot be a "syntax." Thus, you can not be "this past chief of the grammar, syntax, spelling police." I don't even know what this phrase you use mean. It has so many grammatical errors and it doesn't even make sense. It is not even a sentence. Your supposed hint is not helpful at all. By the way, who gave you the title "grammar chief" past or present? Who made you an spelling police? Worst of all, how did you become a "syntax?" Boy, this is becoming exceedingly funny.
12/13/05 @ 06:27
Comment from: Paul W [Visitor]
Interesting analysis from the Guardian on how Annika would fare on the PGA:


The article predicts she would earn around $34,000 per tournament, not bad, but much less than she earns on the LPGA. I assume if she drove a few yards longer that would go up a lot.

Driving and putting are the stats that are the article says are the most different between men and women. The article says that men take an average of 1.75 putts (the same as Annika's average) and women 1.84. I think the author is wrong about the putting stats. Later in the article he contradicts himself when he says that Annika's average is 1.75 which would place her as number 20 amoung the men. The stats look fairly close to me at the top, e.g. Annika is 1.75 and Tiger 1.73.
12/13/05 @ 09:56
Comment from: j [Visitor]
John Zedella,
I see a mistake in your comment.
You wrote: an spelling police.
You meant to write: a spelling police, didn't you?
Or am I wrong?
12/13/05 @ 10:07
Comment from: John Zedella [Visitor]
J, I inadvertently omitted a "d" from the word. Jon, the word "syntax" was used in this context as an adjective, i.e. the syntax police. That's a joke, son! How about if we all get back to golf? I don't think either of you want to take me on in English grammar or its proper usage. Those are my strong suits.
12/13/05 @ 10:27
Comment from: Shanks [Member] Email
I would think that Annika's putts per hole average (which is calculated on greens hit in regulation) would go up if she played on the men's Tour - for a couple of reasons.

First, the courses are much longer, averaging about 40-50 yards longer per hole. She would not be able to hit the ball close to the hole as often as she does on the LPGA Tour. And that was evident when she played at Colonial even though that course plays shorter than most. The second reason is power & spin. Annika does not get as much spin as the male players which makes it more difficult for her to stop the ball on the PGA Tour's firmer greens - even when she does get a short iron in her hand. At Colonial she had to play to the center of the green, leaving many long putts for birdie. (But that is what has everyone so excited about Michelle Wie. At 16 years old she already hits it slightly longer than Annika and will probably add length as she gets a little older. However it's the rest of the game that will determine how successful she is against the men.)

Annika would probably be able to make the adjustment to putting the faster surfaces of the PGA Tour but longer approach putts means less putts made and adds up to more putts per round.

I think she would make some cuts - especially at Hilton Head where the premium is on accuracy - but I seriously doubt she could make enough in a year to get in the top 125.

12/13/05 @ 10:49
Comment from: Paul W [Visitor]
Shanks, I agree with you that Annika would have a lot more trouble getting it close to the hole on the PGA. The issue with backspin was even apparent at the Skins game.

I think Michelle has better backspin, but I'm not sure. It's very much an open question whether she can increase her driving distance. From the stats, it doesn't seem like she has increased it that much over the last 2 years. Here are some of her averages at men's events:

Sony 2004: 261
Sony 2005: 261
John Deere: 271
Casio: 261

At the Casio, however, she did drive 4 drives over 300 yards, including one that was 320.
12/13/05 @ 12:28
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Paul, just for the stats, I'm not sure if everyone knows how they are calculated, but here is how:
* for 2 long designated holes on a golf course, they take the drives on each, and the average of these is what driving distance is calculated by.
Therefore for 2 days at a tournament Michelle's driving is based on just 4 holes. At the Casio, for one of her drives on one of the designated holes she completely messed up her shot, so that took her average way down.

I'm just trying to show that it isn't particularly accurate over one tournament.
For example in the Nationwide Tournament that Michelle entered when she was 13 years old in 2003, her average drive was 281 yards.
12/13/05 @ 12:46
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
I take Shanks argument on board that Annika would indeed have longer putts on the pga tour to deal with.

I do think she would make some cuts, but I think she would struggle to get any high places and I think she would be around the 125 on the money list.
12/13/05 @ 12:48
Comment from: John Zedella [Visitor]
Shanks, Well-stated on the premise that even Annika, probably the best woman golfer ever, could not make it on the PGA tour. Several posters on this board are adamant in their refusal to recognize fundamental genetic differences in the physiological makeup of men and women. Watching the marked differences in play between the genders should be enough to convince anyone that females are at an insurmountable disadvantage when they attempt to compete with men of equal stature. In 2003, I was a spectator at Muirfield in Dublin, Ohio for the last two rounds of the Memorial. Kenny Perry won in 13 under on a course measuring about 7250 yards. The following week I watch the final two rounds of the LPGA event in Wilmington, Del. Annika won in 6 under on a course of about 6400 yards. The disparity in the quality and styles of play were apparent to anyone with good vision. The men's drives were longer and higher and had more roll, the irons were higher with a lot more spin, and their putts rolled more true. No objective observer who saw both tournaments could possibly arrive at different conclusion than mine. Whether or not Annika could ever make a cut or compete on the PGA tour will likely never be known. She stated after her missed cut at the Colonial that she didn't have the game to play with the men, and that she couldn't wait to get "back to the LPGA tour where she belonged."
12/13/05 @ 13:55
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
John, Annika, probably the best woman golfer ever, could not make it on the PGA tour.

However, give Annika Michelle's power to be able to hit longer drives and generate the power needed to spin her approach shots to the green and she could make it.

Annika doesn't possess the power required. Her driving is very "gentle" and relies heavily on timing. Watch out for the next breed of female golfer, that will have more power to their game, in the same way the women's tennis changed to a power game.
If they were to train anything similar to female tennis players they would have plenty of power.

As regards listing a tournament on a mens course and one on a womens course, I could easily list a womens tournament wher the winning score was 12 under, and then find a mens tournament where the winning socre was 1 under. Finishing scores prove nothing.

By the way, if you are trying to say that the pga tour is much stronger than the lpga, then nobody is arguing with you. Only the top women have a chance at the pga.

As regards the men with their longer higher drives. If you paid any notice to the MW debate. The point is that she drives it long and high.
4 drives over 300 yards at the Casio. She can put a fair bit of spin on it too. That is why she is the one competing agains the men.
12/13/05 @ 18:39
Comment from: John Zedella [Visitor]
Norman, the difference in the two courses I alluded to was in the length. True, Michelle is competing against the men, but not too successfully. Of course, to your way of thinking, getting thrashed 5 and 4 in the quarterfinals of a Public Links Amateur event is being highly successful. And missing the cut in a 98 player field of mediocre quality in Japan is another mark of greatness. Then there is Michelle's progress at the Sony. By your backwoods logic MW was lucky when she missed the cut by one in 2004, but she burned up the course in 2005 when she missed by seven shots. If she finishes ten shot out in this year's Sony, by your measure she'll be a world-beater.
12/13/05 @ 23:10
Comment from: alan [Visitor]
I can't understand why you think Wie isn't competing well on the PGA.
Compare her with Tiger Woods who is by far the best golfer of recent times.
In his first attempts at the PGA between the ages of 16 and 19 his scores to par were +5, +10, +6, +9, +13, +3, +5.
This is all while he was winning well as an amateur.
Michelle has competed significantly better at a younger age.
Alan M
12/14/05 @ 12:13
Comment from: John Zedella [Visitor]
Alan, You said, "compare her(MW) with Tiger Woods who is by far the best golfer of recent times." It seems a bit ridiculous, but okay, Alan, I will. Woods has won 46 times on the PGA tour and and , I believe, ten other times worldwide. As an amateur, he won three US Amateur Junior crowms and three consecutive US Amateur Championships. He has been selected six times as Player of the Year by the PGA members themselves. In events of any consequence, Michelle Wie has won ZIP, ZERO, NADA. Incidentally, Scott Verplank and Phil MIckelson are two amateurs who won events on the PGA tour.
12/14/05 @ 12:55
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
John Zedella,
Alan said to compare her to Tiger Woods first attempts on the pga tour.
Only you could be stupid enough to think he wanted you to compare someone starting their career to someone who has been playing pga events for 14 years.

Lets compare there first 3 events:
Tiger: +5, +10, +6
Michelle: E, +9, +1

Michelle's 1st event, better than Tiger's 1st event.
Michelle's 2nd event, better than Tiger's 2nd event.
Michelle's 3rd event, better than Tiger's 3rd event.

By the way, for Michelle's upcoming 4th event, she needs to beat the tough score of +9 set by Tiger in his 4th event to keep the streak going. Thanks Alan for figures.

John, can even you try to deny that she has done better than Tiger?
I wouldn't be surprised if you were stupid enough to try.
12/14/05 @ 14:07
Comment from: John Zedella [Visitor]
Norman, I believe I've refuted your hypothesis on the other thread. Now why don't you take personal insults and the word "stupid" out of your postings? Lighten up, for gosh sake, it's the Christmas season!
12/14/05 @ 15:39
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
John, you are the one who started the insults. You may not have called anyone stupid, but you have disrespected plenty of people on this blog.
12/14/05 @ 16:25
Comment from: Jim Coulthard [Visitor]

You mention 3 US Junior Amateur titles won by Tiger--at ages 15,16, and 17. If these are of significance, why isn't Michelle Wie's adult win at the WAPL at age 13 considered significant?
12/14/05 @ 19:25
Comment from: jon [Visitor]
Norman, Jim

I reached the conclusion that it is not worth discussing anything with Z. Don't bother with him. He is best if you talk over him and not directly at him.

The problem with golf as with writing is that everybody thinks they can do it. The plain fact is that only few can really play it well. The rest of us are hacks with varying degree of success. Golf is probably one of the most technically demanding games. Sure, anybody can hit a golf ball, but only a few can strike it well and consistently over time.

You see this all the time at the golf courses and ranges. Those with little knowledge usally are the loudest critics, making anal and minute comments concerning some obscure and slight flaws. Instead of appreciating someone's talent, they make assanine criticisms, blowing things out of proportion. These small minded people are either under a delusion that they can somehow and somewhere under right conditions play better or simply jealous. When all reasons and common sense fail them, they become insistent like Z, repeating mantra after mantra. This kind of people will never really change. Poor Z. Such a sad man. Lmao
12/14/05 @ 20:14
Comment from: John Zedella [Visitor]
Norman, Are "anal" comments talking out of one's a--? I believe the word you searched for in vain was "asinine". I'm not trying to be a wiseguy, I'm just interested. Seriously. A helpfil hint: Don't use too many adjectives.
12/14/05 @ 20:39
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
John, I didn't say anything about "anal" comments.
That was Jon.
12/14/05 @ 21:05
Comment from: John Zedella [Visitor]
Norman, since you don't wish to take the high ground and refrain from snide remarks and personal insults, I'll have to try to inspire you with my own conduct. For instance, if I were a mean-spirited person who wanted to engage in insulting invective, I might say "Norman is so dumb he should have been twins." Or even worse, I might add, "if imbecility were music, Norman would be the New York Philharmonic." Or I might even say"Norman doesn't have enough sense to come in out of the rain." But I'm too much of a gentleman to insult anyone like that, even a Wie Warrior.
12/14/05 @ 21:12
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
John Zedella, I know you seem to have difficulty understanding basic facts, but it was Jon who said whatever anal stuff about you.
12/14/05 @ 21:19
Comment from: jon [Visitor]
I am not even going to bother with Z anymore. Last parting words. Z is a moron lalala. I bet Z spends so much time trying to write his blogs. I bet he didn't even graduate from college, lalala. Boy , this is a lot more fun.
12/14/05 @ 21:22
Comment from: jon [Visitor]
Why, thank you so much Paul W. Such an insightful and concise comment. I must indeed commend you for being so helpful as to provide the internet site for the wiki definition for troll. You, sir, are indeed a gentleman and scholar.
12/14/05 @ 22:29
Comment from: Paul W [Visitor]
No problem, btw here's the leaderboard for Ai Miyazato's first attempt against the guys. Doesn't look like she's teed off yet:

12/14/05 @ 22:42
Comment from: John Zedella [Visitor]
Hey guys, whadda ya mean I dint go to college! I congratulated and got a diplomat to prove it!
12/14/05 @ 23:28
Comment from: Paul W [Visitor]
Miyazato shot an 80 in her first round in cold and windy conditions. She's 2nd to last.

She seems to have a relaxed attitude about it though. Before the round she said "This tournament offers me a brand new experience but I'm here out of gratitude for what I've got from the place I love -- Okinawa. I'll just try my best to please the people who come out on the course and watch me play," and "I can't reach the green in two shots on any of the par-5s here, so it would be tough if they have difficult pin positions. Shooting even-par will probably be the best I could do."

One thing she is better than MW at is expectation setting.
12/15/05 @ 08:00
Comment from: John Zedella [Visitor]
jon, you really shouldn't be calling anyone a "moron", especially someone you've never met. Didn't your mother teach you any manners? As I stated before, stooping to personal insults never solved a thing. If I said "if brains were dynamite, Norman wouldn't be able to blow his nose", or "jon doesn't know his posterior excretory sphincter from a hole in the ground", I would be engaging in demeaning personal invective. That's why I won't say such things. I was taught better at home and in school.
12/15/05 @ 09:54
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Paul, indeed Ai is struggling in Japan, with a first round 80 leaving her 2nd last.

It is a pity, but I guess it shows just how good Michelle Wie is.

Too bad some people have little hope of ever grasping that.

Fair play to Ai for trying though.
12/15/05 @ 10:32
Comment from: alan [Visitor]
You are on the button with your comments about Z. I have just said the same thing on Baldies Wie Blog.
He obviously hasn't an ounce of reasoning in his body.
Maybe he is getting senile. I think he said he is in his seventies.
Just for the record I am English. I am not racist, fascist or any other ist you might think of.
Alan M
12/15/05 @ 12:01
Comment from: John Zedella [Visitor]
Alan, I have good news and bad news. The good news is, to paraphase the immortal words of deceased President Nixon, "you won't have JohnZ to kick around any more." I'm outta here for Christmas and New Year's. The bad news is, in the words of another California governor, "I'll be back!", on 11 JAN in time to see Michelle give it her all in the Sony. I honestly hope that she makes the cut. I'd hate to see you guys start out in a blue funk so early in the year. AND, heaven forbid, I certainly don't want to become so despondent as to follow in the footsteps of the Hal-Bopp comet, Heavens Gate sect. Kee the home fires burning and Merry Chtistmas to all.
12/15/05 @ 12:57
Comment from: Paul W [Visitor]
Norman, I guess a lot of people have underestimated the strength of the Japanese PGA tour, including Gufstason, Ai Miyazato, Wie and even Tiger who had to play a 4 hole playoff to win his event.
12/15/05 @ 14:05
Comment from: Paul W [Visitor]
fyi, some details on Miyazato's 1st round, sounds pretty frustrating:

12/15/05 @ 14:10
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Paul I think you make a very interesting point about the underestimation of the Japanese Tour.

It is true that they don't have players very high up in the world rankings. However the reason for the level of play is certainly much higher than their rankings.

Very mediocre professions in the US get to play against high ranked opposition on the pga tour. Due to this, they can get lots of bonus ranking points.
In Japan if you win tournaments it is still very hard to climb up the world rankings, hence their low rankings.
I reckon many of the lower pga tour players with ranking much higher than their Japanese counterparts, would struggle on the Japanese tour.
12/15/05 @ 15:35
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Paul, great article about Ai's first round. Here is a telling quote:

"But her trip suddenly went south on the 396-yard, par-4 15th. Miyazato hooked her drive to the left-side bunker, sliced her second shot into the right-side bunker, and then sent her third shot into yet another sand trap 20 yards short of the green.

Her misery continued when she mishit a sand wedge, moving her ball from one side of the bunker to the other from a sunny-side-up lie. Miyazato used up five shots before reaching the edge of the green, and had to pencil in a seven on her scorecard".

That must have been very difficult for her to deal with.
12/15/05 @ 15:38
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Also, Tiger had +9 on his fourth pga attempt.
I am confident that Michelle will beat that.
12/15/05 @ 15:50
Comment from: Paul W [Visitor]
Norman, it must have been tough for Ai. Unless she has a really good round tomorrow (tonight) she probably won't want to try it again. You gotta admire Wie's tenacity to keep trying despite all the naysayers around!
12/15/05 @ 16:56
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Yes, Wie is definetely to be admired.
I think if Wie had similar rounds to Ai's round, she would have taken a break from the mens game.
Given Wie has done so well, there is certainly very little chance of her stopping competing with the men anytime soon.

As regards Ai's 2nd round, you have to feel sorry for the one guy who is behind her (4 shots behind her).
I'm just hoping that Ai puts together a decent round and picks up some places after the 2nd round. If she puts in a 5 over round, she should pick up some places.

By the way, has anybody noticed that Chris Baldwin hasn't put out a story critisising Ai's first round 80.
12/15/05 @ 18:15
Comment from: Jim Coulthard [Visitor]
John Z

What do you mean in the words of another California governor? Nixon lost in his run for governor in 1962--that's why he promised us we wouldn't have him to kick around anymore. But obviously he changed his mind.
12/15/05 @ 18:57
Comment from: RRR [Visitor]
Winning is important at any level yet their are only a handfull of winners on each tour in any year. The LPGA and PGA are both dominated by group of five individuals in any given year.

Miss Creamer won and also made a great deal of money in 2005 to finish second to the most dominent player on any tour. She played a full LPGA schedule, plus the invites to the after tour events.

During 2005 Miss Creamer and Miss Wie competed in eight LPGA sanctioned events together.

Although Miss Wie did not play a full schedule (limited to eight exemptions) she finished ahead of Miss Creamer in five of those eight events.

Based on this consistentcy of performance Miss Wie would have finished in the top five money leaders on the LPGA tour if she played a full schedule (without winning).

Not bad for a sixteen year old child.

12/16/05 @ 02:44
Comment from: RRR [Visitor]
BTW Miss Wie was in the same field as Ms. Sorenstram seven times in 2005.

Miss Wie finished ahead of Ms. Sorenstam twice out of these seven matches. She also tied Ms. Sorenstam at the US Women's Open and finished second behind her at the McDonald's LPGA Championship.

Again I state: not bad for a sixteen year old child.

12/16/05 @ 03:40
Comment from: Paul F [Visitor]
Just to clarify a point, Michelle shot 70, 71 at the John Deere and was -1 not +1. Not bad for a 15 year old boy or girl.
12/16/05 @ 06:41
Comment from: RRR [Visitor]
True Paul and if you look at who mised the cut at the Deere you would find some PGA Professionals that didn't score quite as well as Miss Wie.

She has whipped the butts of many a professional male or female golfer as a child.

I haven't noticed any columnists taking these Professionals to task for their poor outings against said child.

12/16/05 @ 07:41
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Yes Paul indeed it was -1 not +1 at the John Deere.
So that is another achievement
ie under par in a pga tour event.

RRR, just where you are saying that she would have finished in the top 5 of the money list based on her performance, there is another factor.

Michelle played in the most difficult events with the most difficult fields. It is not unreasonable to expect, that if she had played a full season, with many weaker fields, that she would have done even better in some of those events.
12/16/05 @ 11:07
Comment from: alan [Visitor]
As I have pointed out before. If you look at the stats for the events she played in, half of which were majors, you will find her average placing was second only to Annika. Her season was phenomenal for a school kid, hence the reason she is called a phenom. She has truely earned the title
Alan M
12/16/05 @ 11:24
Comment from: RRR [Visitor]
Writers forget that Miss Wie was not responsible for the hype and the large galleries that follow her around a golf course. Curiosity and hope are the reasons the average gate for the events she appears in are twenty to twenty-five percent larger.

Miss Wie will get all the Sponsor's Exemptions she can handle because it makes business sense.

Nike and Sony both showed up at Miss Wie's door to court her as an endorser and paid a premium because of the other offers surrounding her. She could have easily been a Taylor Made, Cleveland, Callaway or Ping endorser and yet Nike saw the potential to use Miss Wie to expand their entire golf line worldwide and paid up. Sony saw the same potential to increase worldwide sales.

Offers for her services are coming from all the automobile manufacturers. I think she just got her license?

I can assure you the Japanese want her driving one of their cars around Hawaii.

12/16/05 @ 14:01
Comment from: Paul W [Visitor]
Details on Miyazato's 2nd round:


"Do I want to play in a men's tournament again?" she quipped. "No. But who knows what will happen 10 years from now."
12/16/05 @ 14:15
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Thanks Paul,

The 1st hole was 444 yards.
Ai hit the ball 290 yards with the assistance of wind. Yet she ended up with a triple bogie there.

I think that shows that she needs to improve alot more things, than just her distance off the tee.
12/16/05 @ 14:39
Comment from: Paul W [Visitor]
It's not clear why Miyazato did that poorly. She showed some of her talent with the birdie on the next hold (a 550 yard par 5) and three other birdies on the round, but her trouble clearly more than offset that. The course was longer than she is used to, but not that much longer. It's that same length as the women's US open course. It was probably a combination of the length, the weather and nerves. Also, she probably didn't prepare herself mentally or physically for the challenge of playing a men's event, like Annika and Michelle did.
12/16/05 @ 16:30
Comment from: alan [Visitor]
Hard luck to Miyazato, brought down to earth with a bang. The funny thing is, she is a proven winner and therefore she should have done a lot better than Wie playing against the guys.(according to our favourite writer)
Guess what that theory didn't work. It is blatantly obvious that at this moment in time there is only one female who has the game to challenge the men and yes it is Wie.
Apart from being the only female with the array of shots she is the only one that has the desire and that is what makes her so special.
Alan M
12/16/05 @ 21:37
Comment from: alan [Visitor]
I didn't mean you
Alan M
12/16/05 @ 21:40
Comment from: Vernon W [Visitor]
Guys, the level of conversation is considerable higher without JZ. May I suggest you ignore his irrational comments, since it only feeds his desire to be noticed. Obviously, he has no other life and this is probably the only place anyone ever responds to him.
12/17/05 @ 03:29
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
JZ won't be back til the Sony Open anyway, so there really isn't any point even considering him.

However his comments are likely to provoke reaction at the Sony.
Even if Wie were to make the cut, he and more particularly Chris Baldwin, would be insulting her final placing.

"Okay she made the cut, but she finished near the back of the field of those who made it".

Lets get one thing clear. If Wie makes the cut at the Sony, it is a big success even if she shoots a terrible score the next two days.

I just have this feeling that it is going to happen this year at the Sony, I did not get that feeling before the Casio.
12/17/05 @ 09:57
Comment from: Jim Coulthard [Visitor]
Making the cut at the Sony would be a success for Michelle Wie--but to be a big success, I think she also needs to shoot a decent score the next two days as well. 69-69-79-82 would make it look like making the cut was a real fluke. 69-69-71-72 would be less than ideal but still nice.
12/18/05 @ 01:18
Comment from: RRR [Visitor]
I was curious how Ai fared against Michelle when they were in the same field in 2005.

Ai Miyazato Record in the Same Event as Michelle Wie

Ai’s Results:

Kraft Nabisco Championship Finished 44th at +9

U.S. Women's Open Cut

Evian Masters Finished 57th at +9

Weetabix Women's British Open Finished 11 at –7

Michelle’s Results:

Kraft Nabisco Championship Finished 14th at E

U.S. Women's Open Finished 23rd at +12

Evian Masters Finished 2nd at –7

Weetabix Women's British Open Finished 3rd at –10

12/18/05 @ 03:13
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Jim, I don't think anyone would want anything around 80, but if Wie hit:
69, 69, 75, 72
I would be very happy.

I still think making the cut is the big deal, and if she does, then nobody can take that away from her.

RRR, I think Ai's best golf is still to come. She did great at the q-school but obviously isn't consistantly good yet.
12/18/05 @ 12:08
Comment from: RRR [Visitor]
Norman I would say the same about Miss Wie. There are some factors in play as a professional that were not available as an armature for Miss Wie.

Daddy is no longer her caddie; she has hired a professional who can hopefully help her through of the rough times and play within herself.

She has one of the best coaches in golf David Ledbetter working with her nearly full time now.

In her stable she has what every top-level professional golfer maintains in their entourage; a nutritionist, sports psychologist, personal trainer and the all-important ability to travel by First Class or Business Jet to her events.

These factors Norman along with not having to live payday to payday, will give Miss Wie a huge advantage compared to other golfers beginning their career as a professional.

All this while she still is in high school taking her SAT/s.
12/18/05 @ 14:03
Comment from: RRR [Visitor]
err: armature should be amature.
12/18/05 @ 14:05
Comment from: Jim Coulthard [Visitor]
I know PGA greens are faster than the ones on the LPGA. Perhaps the men's game in Japan has more difficult greens etc.--and Ai went into the event soon after her important Q school tournament, probably with very little experience on courses groomed for men. She did it largely unprepared as a favor to her home island.

This does say something about the difficulty of what michele wie is doing playing essentially 2 different versions of golf with women and with men.
12/18/05 @ 16:34
Comment from: matt [Visitor]
I hate to break-up this little Wie love fest, but you guys really should listen to yourselves. Michelle Wie has had some nice results thus far in her young career, but she has not reinvented the wheel. She has tremendous potential and loads of talent, but has yet to demonstrate the ability to seal the deal, whether it be cuts made at the men's tour level or wins at the women's level. I know, I know, she's only 16, but Wie fanatics seem to want it both ways. Her age, inexperience, potential, and her being outmatched by the Men will always provide a built in excuse for her---example, " She almost qualified against men, not bad for a ____ (fill in the blank)age girl." " She almost won a tournament against the best women in the world and she's just a teen." Norman is already hedging his bets if she makes the cut at the Sony Open and plays badly over the weekend. Michelle Wie is a wonderful talent who should by all accounts have a wonderful career on the LPGA, she may even make a few cuts against the men, but lets see how her career unfolds before we elevate her to superstar status.
12/18/05 @ 21:44
Comment from: matt [Visitor]
Norman---You know I respect your opinion, but please stop comparing Michelle and Tiger's early results. There is no point to these comparisons--He is the one person, who you would say would be most unhappy with 2nd place. I think people make the biggest mistake when they compare Michelle Wie to Tiger. She is not Tiger Woods. Why is she compared to him. You can compare her and say (as Tiger does), that she is better than he was at her age, but that doesn't count for much. I'd say there are more players who were better than Tiger at early ages too, but they didn't finish out better. Norman I cut and pasted this passage from one of your numerous other blogs, these are your words refuting your own logic. Your starting to ignore your own advice, we know you love Michelle and love citing stats to prove how great she is or will become, but let's not get carried away.
12/18/05 @ 22:15
Comment from: RRR [Visitor]
For the sake of argument. If Miss Wie does make the cut at the Sony Open, will she gain the respect of the public/press as Babe Zacharias did so many years ago? Or will she have to place in the top 10 to gain the same respect?

12/19/05 @ 06:12
Comment from: Jeff Reddy [Visitor]
Michelle Wei and the PGA tour. I think it's funny that people are trying to predict the future of Michelle Wei. I think you must keep in mind that she is only 16 years old. What was Phil or Ernie doing when they were 16? Sure, Tiger was well known at that age and people were predicting great things for him even at that early age. On the flip side, Ernie and Phil didn't make a name for them selves until they were closer to 30 years old. Give Michelle another 10 years and I think it's very possible that she could be a regular player on the Mens tour and could even be one of the best. We can continue this chat in 2015.
12/19/05 @ 08:28
Comment from: matt [Visitor]
Norman on the 15th of December on Baldwin's blog you were not confident about Wie making the cut at the Sony Open, now on this blog two days later you now have a feeling that she will make the cut. Well which is it? Once again hedging your bets, Norman. If she makes it you can scream, "I told you so." If she fails you can fall back on theories about how the wind conspired against her, the greens were cut too short, or her SAT studies got in the way. All the while claiming that she learned something from the experience, she's learning something allright, how to lose and still make a lot of money, an admirable skill, but ultimately one which will not garner comparisons to Tiger Woods and Bobby Jones. Also just for the record can we stop using the term competing against the men, competing implies Michelle Wie is in the tournament to win, she is not, she is trying to make the cut, a great goal, but not the same as competing or winning. Let's use playing with from now on; example--Sponsers exemptions let Michelle Wie play with the big boys on the PGA Tour.
12/19/05 @ 11:24
Comment from: alan [Visitor]
Of course Wie is competing against the men. Unless you are suggesting half of the men (the ones that have no chance of winning) are not competing also. There are a lot of the guys who are just trying to make the cut.
Just out of interest, who were the other players that were better than Tiger at 14, 15 or 16 years old?
Golf is a game of stats, and there is no reason why one shouldn't compare Wie's PGA performances with Tiger's
Alan M
12/19/05 @ 11:55
Comment from: matt [Visitor]
Alan---The words above are Norman's words cut and pasted to prove an earlier point. So for the answer to your question you would have to ask Norman. Comparing stats relating to missed cuts is pointless, because in the end they are both unwanted outcomes or loses so to speak, who cares how much you miss the cut by you still missed it. Are you trying to say that you think Michelle will eventually have the career that Tiger Woods has had based on their early PGA Tour results? Because if you are I know a good shrink you should go see, if not than the comparisons should end.
12/19/05 @ 13:19
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
You have gotton so many things wrong!

* Firstly in misquoting me. I said that Michelle Wie should not be compared to Tiger Woods as he stands NOW.
So please stop cutting and pasting small sections of a point, to take it out of context.

As regards, the Sony Open, I said that I have a feeling that she is going to make the cut. That is not a confidence, it is just a feeling.
As regards the wind, if it blows like last year, then no I don't think she would make the cut then. I've tried to explain that before, but obviously you know little about wind in golf and the sheer experience required to overcome it.

As regards competing, as Alan said: Michelle is competing.
12/19/05 @ 15:27
Comment from: alan [Visitor]
Are you saying you cut the following out of one of Normans comments

"Also just for the record can we stop using the term competing against the men, competing implies Michelle Wie is in the tournament to win, she is not, she is trying to make the cut, a great goal, but not the same as competing or winning. Let's use playing with from now on; example--Sponsers exemptions let Michelle Wie play with the big boys on the PGA Tour."
When did Norman write this?
Alan M

12/19/05 @ 19:15
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Alan, I was confused to as to what part of it was supposed to be quoting me, and what was Matt's comment.
12/19/05 @ 20:01
Comment from: matt [Visitor]
Norman I didn't quote you I cut and pasted it from one of your blogs. So if you are misqouted it is by yourself. That's right Norman you have just made history by misquoting yourself. Alan, I will type very slowly so you can understand what I'm saying. The question you asked me to answer was in reference to Norman's comment about there probably being a number of players better then Tiger at his age. I repeat that was Norman's comment so you would have to ask him who those players might be. The qoute you mention in your last comments was written by me and I stand by it. Norman as I have mentioned before I was a decent tournament player growing up and still am quite competitive carrying a 2.2 handicap index, so I do know a little something about wind and it's effects on a golf ball. It's not experience, though that does help it's skill, ball flight and control that make the difference when playing in windy conditions. another lame excuse for Michelle's failings as a player. Pathetic, I once had fun debating these points with you and the other Wie disciples, but now I tire of you. I use your own words to make a point and you claim to be misqouted you are unbelievable.
12/19/05 @ 21:33
Comment from: alan [Visitor]
You are priceless.
Now that you tire of us does this mean you won't be writing on this blog anymore.
I don't think you will be missed.
Alan M
12/20/05 @ 08:12
Comment from: matt [Visitor]
Alan---you say such hurtful things. I think it should be you who leaves this site, you are obviously uncomfortable with anyone who has the audacity to hold a different view/opinion then yourself. I have to listen to your inane Wie worship so you can listen to my realist Wie viewpoints.
12/20/05 @ 12:04
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
"Realistic Wie viewpoints" in Matt's language = "jealous rants"!
12/20/05 @ 13:20
Comment from: matt [Visitor]
Let's see I have a beautiful, loving wife, wonderful kids, a great job, I am surrunded by family and friends, I have more money then I could ever spend and I travel and play golf all over the world. Your right Norman I am jealous of a 16 year old girl who has the weight of the world on her shoulders from maniacs like you who have annointed her the next Messiah of golf. I'm jealous of a little girl who has never been a normal day in her life. I'm jealous because I wish every move of mine was sructinized by the media, and the public. No, I'll take my life thank you very much. Sometimes Norman people do not agree with your viewpoints, I know that's hard for you to understand, but they do and it's not jealousy or lack of intelligence or whatever. It's because people are different. I respect the conviction of your thoughts and opinions, but I have never seen you say you were wrong or even acknowledge that your logic may be skewed. I am reminded of an argument you had with Shanks about who had the better year between Paula creamer and Michelle Wie in which because Michelle averaged a slightly higher average finish she had the better year even though Creamer won twice on tour and once in Japan and it was in that moment that I realized that you were a lost cause. You have since insulted me personally and my golf intellect, when anyone who has ever competed at any level of any sport would take the wins. There are really only two ways to settle this and the first I'm sure you would not agree to, the second is to...well there is no second so unless you want to give me your address I guess we will just have to slug it out here.
12/20/05 @ 17:30
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
I don't think me or Shanks will be going back to that argument, thank you very much.
The thing that is inconsistant in what you say though, is that you thought I was a lost cause then, but you've been blogging against stuff I say since then.
The second inconsistancy is that you seem not to like being insulted, yet you called me a wanker, before I said anything against you.

Like I just commented in another blog, Creamer won twice in Japan, and I give her, her due credit.
She has probably surpassed Wie's play at this stage and I think will be very much the clear number 2 player next season. I think Creamer will pull further away from Kerr in the money list, but not challenge Annika just yet.
Paula could win as many as 5 titles next season if it goes well, but more likely 3 or 4.
12/20/05 @ 19:04
Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
Just on a funny note. While I was arguing with Shanks about the Creamer-Wie debate, I would then switch on my tv and cheer for Creamer in the next lpga tournament.

Also I was cheering for Pressel at the US Open, as soon as Wie was out of contention.
12/20/05 @ 19:08
Comment from: alan [Visitor]
If you think calling someone priceless is hurtful you must be easily offended.
If you write contentious crap on a blog you have to expect some friendly backchat.
Don't you find it funny that everyone basically disagrees with you opinions? There is a definite pattern here.
Also you said that you had tired of blogging, why have you written another thousand words of rubbish today. Yesterday you gave us all hope.
Alan M
12/20/05 @ 19:57
Comment from: alan [Visitor]
I did a word count. I didn't read all of your comments.
Alan M
12/20/05 @ 20:00
Comment from: matt [Visitor]
Alan--there's nothing wrong with admitting you are reading my stuff. you might just learn something. I was just joking about the hurtful comments, I'm a big boy I'll be just fine. If you look at the majority of my early posts you will see that none of them were in the least bit contentious, they have I admit gotten a little more sour in tone and for that I apologize. I was suprised quite honestly by the anger and hostility that any critical or percieved negative comment about Michelle Wie ilicited. She is lucky to have such diehard supporters, but it only makes me more steadfast in my resolve to question her career path and place in the future of golf. I will try not to offend everybody quite so much in the future. Except for Brendan who is a punk b**ch.
12/20/05 @ 22:11

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