Morgan Pressel is already using gamesmanship on Michelle Wie

Notice where MP said “I’d be very surprised, just because of what happened last time.” She doesn't want anyone to forget Michelle's bad round last year. I think it's more jealosy than gamesmanship. I don't see MP saying similar things about her other competitors (Creamer, Gulbis, Miyazato, ...).

I think it will be very interesting to see how pressel perform against Wie at the Field Open. They should be paired against each other and I wonder how Pressel will feel when she is being out drive by 50 yards...

David.... well you know what they say, drive for show...putt for dough

The money Wie would have earned in 2005 would easily put her high enough on the money list to qualify, and that was the basis for the 2004 exemption. Because of the outcry last time, Fay wants to use some other basis for letting her play this time--but because of the outcry last time, he cannot refuse to let her in this time for the same reason without admitting that he was wrong last time.

I would hope that the USGA will learn its lesson and eliminate any exemptions based upon LPGA money lists. Hopefully they will be able to do it in time for this year's open. That way not only Michelle Wie(possibly) but all the other LPGA pros who would have to rely on the money list exemption will have to go through qualifying. It seems to me that LPGA pros were so upset by Wie's exemption in 2004 that they would gladly forgo money list exemptions for LPGAS pros if that is what it takes to make Wie go though qualifying, and I think they should be given their wish. This might help open up more spots for amateurs, who seem to do quite well in the event.

I think Wie's performances last year mean that she should automatically get an exemption into this years US Womens Open.

Apart from 23rd at the US Open, her next worst lpga performance was 14th position.

At this level of play, it is not only likely that she would make the cut, but also be one of the favourites to win the title. It would be silly to exclude someone like this.

By the way, it was said that it will probably be decided, based on her performances in lpga events up to the US Open. That is fair enough.

Shanks,
I think you are half right on Pressels games.

Yes she is most definetely trying to annoy Wie. There is no doubt about that but I don't think Wie will be unnessarily worried by it.

The 2nd reason why Pressel is bringing this up is jealousy. There is little doubt that she is very jealous of all the publicity that surrounds Michelle and which she thinks she should have herself. She wants that limelight, and she is trying to make her name off Wie.

Pressel knows that making a Wie comment is one very sure way of getting publicity.
The publicity could be good for womens golf in the short term, but I don't really think Pressel will be challenging Wie in a few year time.
Of course I could be underestimating her, but that is just my opinion.

I would agree that Pressel is hostile because of the advantages Wie has been granted. But do not underestimate the fact that Pressel believes that she is as good or better than Wie. Pressel has a superior record in national amateur events and truly believes in her heart that she is every bit as deserving as Wie, especially since her 2nd place finish in the 2005 US Open, coupled with Wie's disappearing act. I can't really argue with that logic so I'm a little understanding of her resentment.

On the other hand, my personal opinion is that Wie puts more "butts in the seats" so I am also understanding of the sponsors decisions to grant these exemptions. However, when it comes to the US Open, it is, and should be, harder to grant exemptions other than for past champions or extremely good recent play. Michelle played extremely well last Summer but that was 2005. When she got her exemption in 2004, it was on the heels of her 4th place finish in the Kraft Nabisco. Should she play mediocre golf this Spring, my guess is that she will have to go through qualifying like everybody else.

Hey everyone! Amy Yang, 16 years old just won the ANZ Australian Ladies Masters(a ladies pro event) as an amateur! Something Wie nor Pressel has never done. It tells me there some young gifted talent out there that can win and on the ladies pro tour but don't get the hype like Wie enjoys. By the way names like Webb and Miyasato played in this event.

If the LPGA Tour pros believe Michelle Wie's exemtpions are undeserved and are thus unhappy with her presence--and some of them DO feel this way--then there's no real reason we should be overjoyed at her receiving an exemption for no other reason but to increase USGA revenue.

The LPGA ladies KNOW their tour inside and out--it belongs to them, after all. And if they say Wie's 'right' to play is unwarranted, it is. They know better than us.

Oh, and I know that Pressel talks about Michelle a lot. But so what? Morgan knows that Michelle will be her foremost competitor--coupled with Paula Creamer, of course--so will thus keep a fierce eye on her golf, and also will be jealous of her fame sometimes.

I don't think this stuff should bother Morgan. She has proven herself to be an exceptional player, winning the U.S. Women's Amateur. She also had a huge chance of winning the U.S. Women's Open until Birdie Kim played that awesome bunker shot.

What has Michelle done thus far? Well, she has wowed us with those huge drives and that colossal bank account. But what else. Except for that, Michelle Wie is mainly just hype; a marketing gimmick. We've yet to see any truly brilliant golf from her yet--no wins, but yes, plenty of long drives and yipped putts.

Missing a PGA Tour cut by a stroke--and getting DQ'ed from your professional debut--does not make you a brilliant player.

David said:
and getting DQ'ed from your professional debut--does not make you a brilliant player.
*******************************

No, but 4 top 3 finishes in 8 lpga starts does.

Dean said:
Hey everyone! Amy Yang, 16 years old just won the ANZ Australian Ladies Masters(a ladies pro event) as an amateur! Something Wie nor Pressel has never done.
************************

Dean that was a Euro-Australian sponsored event and is not in the same class as an lpga event.

A 2nd place in an lpga major is a far greater achievement, than a win in the ANZ Australian Ladies Masters.

David said:
The LPGA ladies KNOW their tour inside and out--it belongs to them, after all. And if they say Wie's 'right' to play is unwarranted, it is. They know better than us.
****************************

Those same players said that she didn't belong at the lpga championships because they thought it was for lpga players only.

Then she played it and beat everyone in the field by 2 shots, excluding Annika.
I think she shows that she belonged there and proved those players wrong. I suspect that she could prove the same people wrong if she gets the US Open invite.

David said:
I don't think this stuff should bother Morgan. She has proven herself to be an exceptional player, winning the U.S. Women's Amateur. She also had a huge chance of winning the U.S. Women's Open until Birdie Kim played that awesome bunker shot.

What has Michelle done thus far? Well, she has wowed us with those huge drives and that colossal bank account. But what else. Except for that, Michelle Wie is mainly just hype; a marketing gimmick. We've yet to see any truly brilliant golf from her yet--no wins, but yes, plenty of long drives and yipped putts.
********************************

In one paragraph, you say Pressel has achieved alot and in the next you claim that Wie has achieved nothing.

The fact is that Wie has achieved far more than Pressel. Pressel's US Amateur title is very nice to have, but her 2nd place in a major is far more of an achievement than that.
As regards achievements at the top level, it is easy to understand that Wie has achieved far more than Pressel.

Here are their finishes in 2005 on the lpga:
Wie: 2,2,2,3,12,14,23.
Pressel: 2,5,19,19,23,23,25.

Hopefully it is obvious to you that Wie's results are much better.
Add to that, Wie had more difficult events, whereas Pressel played against some weaker fields.

AVERAGE PLACINGS:
Wie: 8th
Pressel 16th

Surely that shows to you, the gap in their performances.
Pressel needs to pick up her game if she wants to catch up to Wie.

I agree with you Norman that the competition level at a major is higher then at the ANZ, but a win is a win and it sure would be nice if Michelle would go ahead and get one so we wouldn't have to listen to any more stats saying how many top 5's she has in her career. You can not be both brilliant and winless eventually you must produce. Since the beginning of time we have heard the saying, "the best player to never win a major" well Michelle Wie is possibly the best player to never win period! She's good her results say as much, but to be great you must win.

Shanks said:
Pressel has a superior record in national amateur events
*************************

The problem with that is lots and lots and lots and lots of people have superior national amateur event records to that of Wie.
Are they all more deserving?

Kimo said:
You can not be both brilliant and winless eventually you must produce.
***************************
Eventually????

True. Eventually. But why are you so eager for her to be winning at 16, when nobody has ever won at that level under 18 years old.

She still has 2 years to break the record.

Norman, the protest over Wie's exemption into the LPGA championship was not based on playing ability. Rather it was based on the fact that Wie was an amateur. Those player's contention was, and still is, that it is their championship for LPGA members only. No amateur, no matter how good, had EVER played in it. And Michelle Wie is not the first very good amateur in history, not by a long shot. Only sponsor pressure was able to get her that exemption. BUT that's what they get for taking the money and attaching a sponsors name to a "major" championship. My opinion is: they traded integrity when they sold those naming rights and they should put a sock in it now. Could you imagine the men playing in something called the Cadillac Masters?

"Comment from: Shanks [Member] · http://www.travelgolf.com/blogs/shanks
Norman, the protest over Wie's exemption into the LPGA championship was not based on playing ability. Rather it was based on the fact that Wie was an amateur. Those player's contention was, and still is, that it is their championship for LPGA members only."

Michelle will not be allowed to play as an LPGA member until she is eighteen Shanks. The money she earns will not count on the ADT official money list as she is not yet an LPGA member. Winning events will not change these facts and give her a full tour exemption, only a two year for that particular event.

That is unless the LPGA devises a way to support someone's academic goals thru academic exemptions.

In the end the LPGA will find a way to bring Michelle into the fold before she is eighteen. Sponsors love a larger gate and TV audience no matter who the player is. Hey Shanks, money talks and BS walks away.

Shanks, you say Pressel's comments indicate she "looks at Wie as no more than an equal and is not afraid of her in any way." It seems to me her comments indicate the opposite, she is trying to avoid competing with Wie. If she really wanted to show she is better, she should say "I'd be happy for Wie to play in the Open, I'll face her anywhere."

Whatelse is new? Pressel mouthing off? I wish she or Herb would be more careful for their sakes. Those who live by the sword die by the sword. In this case..."mouth." Well, to be fair. What do people think how she will do at SBS Open? 1st place? runner up? top 10? It would be interesting to see how people think she will do at the first LPGA tournament. Not that I would be watching it.

Wie not playing in the US Open -- who will it hurt the most? Wie, the US Open or the LPGA?

"Comment from: Wayne [Visitor]
Wie not playing in the US Open -- who will it hurt the most? Wie, the US Open or the LPGA?"

That will open another date where she can schedule another Asian PGA event and pick up another cool 1.5 million or more to soften the blow. Ahhh the pain of rejection.

The USGA and LPGA are the big losers not Michelle Wie.

If I were BJ, I would have Michelle exclusively schedule events on the Asian Tours for the next two years and give the finger to the LPGA and USGA.

Nike and Sony would both like this strategy very much indeed. Their largest potential market growth is in Asia.

Michelle Wie should let Morgan Pressel have it. She should do a commercial with Birdie Kim promoting this year's Women's Open. We would see a replay of Birdie's miracle shot and Michelle celebrating with her. Then Michelle Wie could say last year I congratulated the winner--this year I want to be the winner.

Last time she was given an exemption based on the fact that she would have been in the top 35 for the year, this time she could be given an exemption based upon the fact that she would have been in the top 40 for the previous year.

Wie should ignore Pressel's comments. If asked about them, she should say "Is there some reason Morgan doesn't want me in the field?"

How about this.... Miss Wie should get an exemption IF AND ONLY IF... she qualifies for it THIS YEAR. Otherwise, she should have to go through qualifing just like all of the other PROS that are not exempt. What ever happened to having to work for something instead of it always being handed to you???? Hey, if Miss Wie earns her spot, all the power to her. If not, she will have something to shoot for NEXT YEAR.

The point is that Pressel is being a hypocrite. She should not be mouthing off about exemtions, when she herself is the beneficiary of a special exemption from LPGA allowing her to compete before 18. Wie should just ignore her. When Morgan turns 18, all this media hype will cool off. Let her results from real LPGA competition determine her worth. I would be surprised if she even made top 10. Another fat girl with an oversized mouth, something LPGA has plenty of.

Let's be real..Golf is not consider a major sport, espcially LPGA. It is far more intersting to see Michelle Wie competing w/ the Men and seeing her playing at LPGA. I'll bet all the money in the world that Pressel w/ love to compete against the Men, but only problem is that everyone knows that she will embarass herself. Do you really think she can break 80

Paul

Is there some reason Morgan doesn't want Michelle in the field? YES. Morgan Pressel hates Michelle Wie. It is as simple as that. If she didn't actually hate Michelle Wie before the Open, the sight of Michelle Wie celebrating with Birdie Kim got her to hate Wie.

Gamesmanship is a two way street and they who are not adept at it should attempt it only with caution.

Morgan has inadvertently left herself wide open for a counter-punch (to extend the Ali analogy) by her inappropriate use of the word "need".

All Michelle has to do when questioned about Morgan's remark is to reply with a sweet smile, "I am pleased that a fellow golfer of Morgan's caliber recognizes that I am quite capable of qualifying and don't 'need' the exemption to get into the tournament. However, if my performance prior to the tournament is good enough to get a Tour Member an exemption, I think I would 'deserve' to get one too, don't you?"

"Comment from: John [Visitor]
Gamesmanship is a two way street and they who are not adept at it should attempt it only with caution.

Morgan has inadvertently left herself wide open for a counter-punch (to extend the Ali analogy) by her inappropriate use of the word "need".

All Michelle has to do when questioned about Morgan's remark is to reply with a sweet smile, "I am pleased that a fellow golfer of Morgan's caliber recognizes that I am quite capable of qualifying and don't 'need' the exemption to get into the tournament. However, if my performance prior to the tournament is good enough to get a Tour Member an exemption, I think I would 'deserve' to get one too, don't you?"

I wouldn't count Michelle out of the SBS Open just yet. Morgan (Big Mouth) Pressel might have made up Michelle's mind for her and she will walk onto the 1st tee at Turtle Bay Monday morning and "qualify" for the tournament.

Now I would pay a dollar to see the look on Morgan's face if that happens.

Boom Sha Ka la.

Michelle could use the qualifier as her wednesday practice round and still only miss three days of school. She has logged many rounds at Turtle Bay over the years ans knows the Palmer course well.

Hmmmmm that's right. The SBS is an "Open"...if you qualify, they can't turn you away...Interesting theory I had not thought of...Oh well, wait and see.

Morgan dissed Michelle on her home turf. Of course Michelle would like nothing better than introduce Miss Pressel to Hawaiian Golf on the North Shore.

Pressel might have a hard time getting it past the regular ladies tee with the wind. Last year the SBS was a real test with 35 mph winds.

Shanks,

It had nothing to do with gamesmanship. You're giving this young girl too much credit and are exhibiting a lack of understanding of the female character. That's not a put-down, though, most men don't have a clue about women.

Pressel is simply angry at how gratuitously Bubbles has been hyped AND is jealous of her. It's nothing more than that -- emotion. Pressel is right, however -- Wie is largely a media creation.

"Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
Shanks,

It had nothing to do with gamesmanship. You're giving this young girl too much credit and are exhibiting a lack of understanding of the female character. That's not a put-down, though, most men don't have a clue about women."

And you have no idea what a female Koreans' temper is like when she hears someone spew crap in their direction. Michelle may have been born and raised in the USA, but she was raised as a Korean American. Morgan may have done her a favor by getting under her skin. Anger is a powerful motivator if controlled.

If you don't think Pressel is trying to get under Wie's skin, you don't know much about Pressel. And while many posts here are saying Wie should just do this or that, think this way or that, it's all about how she handles this internally - not always easy for a 16 year old. I hope she rises to the challenge. But one thing is for sure, it will be very interesting to watch this story unfold.

Pressel is simply jealous of wie and she simply can not hide her emotion. We don't need to bring gamesmanship to explain pressel's comments.

If pressel is really trying to play gamesmaship, she better think one more time.

At 2004 sony, Appelby said wie would be lucky to break 80 and everybody knows what happened.

At 2004 women's open Veterans cried over USGA's special exemption to wie and wie finsihed 13th and earned automatic spot for next year's women's open and made it sure there would be no talk of special exemption.

Last year entire lpga players cried wie doesn't belong to lpga championship and wie finished runner up.

Last year Danny Green said wie doesn't belong to publinx and wie reached quarter final.

Last year at nabisco pressel publically complained wie is getting every exemptions . Pressel had one time 4 strokes lead over wie in final round but fell apart at back 9 and ended up losing to wie. She was so upset, she cried even before putting out 18th hole.

My thinking is pressel will have better chance to beat wie when she keeps her mouth shut.

Morgan vs. Michelle who cares? If I want to watch overly dramatic teenage girls catfighting I'll watch entertainment tonight or reality television. I am a fan of golf and these two just do it for me. Pressel is a loud-mouthed bulldog of a girl whose claim to fame is a stellar amateur career and coming in second at the U.S. Open, big deal. Wie is a slickly marketed and talented pheonom who has even less of a resume, so what. Why would I care what either one of these two have to say. Neither one of them has experienced winning on the LPGA. If the LPGA is banking on this rilvary to carry it to higher ratings and national prominence that is just sad. Annika wins 50% of the events she enters last year and Paula Creamer has one of the best rookie campaigns in history and we have to listen to spoiled brat Morgan Pressel talk trash to the winless wonder Michelle Wie---Pathetic.

Yeah Wie really showed that mean old Stuart Appleby with that missed cut in 2004. It just came to me if you combined Pressel and Wie you might have something resembling a championship golfer. Pressel has the drive and grit to be a champion, but not the overall talent level of Wie, while Wie has all the talent, but not the killer instinct that Pressel has.

As I watch the press and the public build up the great personal vendetta between Michelle Wie and Morgan Pressel, I am reminded of one of the great face offs of the last century...Joe Louis vs. Max Schmelling.

Max had nailed Joe in their first match and the whole world had taken sides by the time they met for a re-match...The Nazi Superman against the Brown Bomber. When they met Louis dropped Schmelling in the first round.

But that's no what I am remembering...what I remember was that Joe and Max became close personal friends. When Louis fell on hard times, it was Schmelling who sent him money on several occasions. When Louis died, Schmelling paid for his funeral and served as a pall bearer. When asked on his 90th birthday what he most regretted in life Max Schmelling said "...that Joe Louis is not still alive, and I am not still his friend."

There is a lot of future left for Michelle and Morgan's rivalry to play itself out in. Nobody knows where it will end.

Trip said:
Yeah Wie really showed that mean old Stuart Appleby with that missed cut in 2004.
---------------------------


Trip, Appleby said that she didn't belong there and would be lucky to break 80.
She shot 72 and 68 and showed that she belonged there.
So, yes indeed she really did show him.

"Comment from: Shanks [Member] · http://www.travelgolf.com/blogs/shanks
If you don't think Pressel is trying to get under Wie's skin, you don't know much about Pressel. And while many posts here are saying Wie should just do this or that, think this way or that, it's all about how she handles this internally - not always easy for a 16 year old. I hope she rises to the challenge. But one thing is for sure, it will be very interesting to watch this story unfold."

She handled the pressure pretty damned well Shanks at 13, 14, 15 and when she was DQ/d as a 16 year old.

What made me a believer she is the real deal was how she came back after her round from hell at the Sony. Most teenage girls would have skipped the second day or completely fell apart on the course, not card a 68 in a PGA event.

She showed up and gave her fans a good show and was disappointed she didn't shoot a 64 to make the cut. That is a demonstration of the controlled anger I wrote about above. She was really pissed at her performance when she left after the first round.

When she fell apart in the third round at the US Open leading after the third round, she came back in the next two events and put together a second and third place finish at the Evian and Weetabix. She was fifteen years old.

In first event as a professional she completed all rounds and was standing alone in fourth place against the top women golfers in the world. Until a golf reporter inserted himself in the Wie story more than a day after he witnessed an infraction. She shed some tears, but took it better than most would and didn't blame anyone but herself.

Shanks I would say her internals are working just fine for someone of any age. Now she is really pissed (internally) and focused on winning to silence her critics, including the divine Ms. Pressel.

Showed him that she could break 80, yes, showed him or anyone for that matter that she belongs on the PGA tour, no. She showed that she can miss cuts, bfd! She's a great talent for sure, but she hasn't shown me or the world that she can win on the LPGA or make cuts on the PGA tour, so until she does quit your yappin' about how great she is and another thing when can we officially stop citing her age, she is fully mature physically and should be considered just like any other female pro, hell with her natural genetic advantages she should dominate women's golf. Also it has already been proven that teens can win on the LPGA and worldwide. You Wie people are the biggest bunch of cry babies, always complaining about the reporter, the wind, her age, that mean old Morgan Pressel, enough with the excuses. I want her to win worse than any of you do, so I don't have to hear anymore of this stupid arguments about how dominate she is when she's never won a gd thing.

Trip could you enlighten the forum on what bfd and gd mean?

Trip said;

"hell with her natural genetic advantages she should dominate women's golf."

Trip, just what genetic advantages would you be writing of that Michelle has?

wow,wow,wow...You sure do get a fine head of steam out of that old boiler of yours, trip old buddy.
The fun part is that you sound a lot like Ms Pressel, very emotional.
Seems to me that Shanks got exactly the kind of response he was looking for from you.

One little thing i'd like to know, tho. How do you define "gamesmanship", Shanks?

Is it anything like this definition from Merriam-Webster?
"gamesmanship
One entry found for gamesmanship.

Main Entry: games·man·ship
Pronunciation: 'gAmz-m&n-"ship
Function: noun
1 : the art or practice of winning games by questionable expedients without actually violating the rules
2 : the use of ethically dubious methods to gain an objective "
Not a very nice way of looking at Ms Pressel at all but then what do I know?

1-Putt, Trip is using those initials instead of cursing - which is appreciated. I'd prefer not to edit or delete anyone's post.
If you think about it, I'm sure you can figure out what he means by those 2 acronyms.

putt4par, looks to me like Webster's has a good handle on the meaning of the word.

Comment from: John [Visitor]
**
As I watch the press and the public build up the great personal vendetta between Michelle Wie and Morgan Pressel, I am reminded of one of the great face offs of the last century...Joe Louis vs. Max Schmelling.
**

LOL ! Here, surely, is one of the silliest comparisons ever!

Isn't there kind of a big difference, with the difference being especially stark for Michelle Wie?

At least both Joe Louis and Max Schmelling had actually WON something when they fought each other. That's a lot more than you can say about Michelle Wie.

-George

To: 4-putt (aka Michelle Wie)

dueling dictionaries:

*****
Dictionary.com

gamesmanship

1. The art or practice of using tactical maneuvers to further one's aims or better one's position: “a sometimes wry, sometimes savage look at the players, political gamesmanship, turf battles and outright chaos that permeated Washington” (David M. Alpern).

2. The use in a sport or game of aggressive, often dubious tactics, such as psychological intimidation or disruption of concentration, to gain an advantage over one's opponent.
*****

Looks like #2 might apply. Or #1.

Either way: YAWN

-George

Here's what I call hype:

http://www.ndtv.com/morenews/showmorestory.asp?slug=Japan+kicks+off+snow+festival&id=84534

"Northern Japan kicked off its annual snow festival with more than 300 snow and ice sculptures on display. ... Towering above all the others is the sculpture of Japan's golf idol Ai Miyazato, standing about 50 feet tall. " See link for picture.

Trip said:
Showed him that she could break 80, yes, showed him or anyone for that matter that she belongs on the PGA tour, no.
------------

He said that she couldn't break 80, so she did prove her wrong.
Is that not easy to understand?

Trip,
Just to add to the last comment,

Appleby said she would struggle to break 80.
Obviously scoring 72 and 68 proved him wrong twice.

If he had claimed, she wouldn't make the cut, then maybe you could say that she did not prove him wrong, but making the cut was not his claim. Breaking 80 was his claim.

Trip said:
so until she does quit your yappin' about how great she is and another thing when can we officially stop citing her age, she is fully mature physically and should be considered just like any other female pro, hell with her natural genetic advantages she should dominate women's golf. Also it has already been proven that teens can win on the LPGA and worldwide.
-----------------

Her age is just turned 16. That is very important Trip.
If she is going to take over for Annika, surely you don't expect it to happen at that age.
As regards teens winning, it has been stated that nobody has won on the lpga under the age of 18 years. Please correct if this is wrong.

The other 16 year old who won a tournament was in an Australian tournament I think, so that wouldn't have been such a great field would it?

Wie has plenty of time to become the youngest lpga winner. I think that will happen, and I think it will be a great achievement.

Norman, you simply go from blog to blog quoting meaningless stats about Michelle Wie. Similarly, such stats about Paula Creamer, Morgan Pressel and the local club pro are just as meaningless.

We couldn't give a rat's ass how many top-3 finishes Michelle has in x amount of 'starts.' A top-3 finish isn't news. A bunch of top-3 finishes is doubtless 'good' play, but until you win something, you haven't proven yourself.

Anna Kournikova turned out to be nothing but hype - not a single pro victory, but plenty of money in the bank. Kournikova won't be remembered as a great tennis player, and unless Wie wins, she won't be remembered as a great golfer.

Speaking of "meaningless statistics" it is interesting to note that Morgan and Michelle had identical numbers of exemptions last year...all the law allows.

Yet to hear Morgan speak you would think Michelle got them all and she got none.

In fact for Morgan:

"She made the cut in all seven of her LPGA Tour appearances, with two top-five finishes, none lower than 25th, including a 19th place finish at the Kraft Nabisco Championship, also an LPGA Tour major. Had she been a professional, she would have earned more than $400,000 and placed 32nd on the LPGA money list.
" http://www.iseekgolf.com/news/8543

For Michelle:

(For her exemptions)
3-second place
1-third place
1-twelfth place
1-thirteenth place
1-DQ (would have been top 10)

She also placed 23rd in the US Women's Open, however that was because she qualifed due to her previous year's finishing position.

Or in summary 4 top fives, 8 top twenty-fives none lower than 23rd and one DQ. Equivalent earnings $663,178 or 18th on the LPGA Money List.

Since these are just "meaningless statistics", I leave you to make of them what you will.

One-Putt .... Isn't it a little obvious that Wie's physical size is a huge advantage over the other LPGA pros. She might only be 16 but she's a really big 16 or 26 or .... Remember, you can't teach height. Finally, kudos to David...

Sorry, I can't count or else I can't type one of the two. Make that (for Michelle) "7 top twenty-fives." not 8...a DQ is not a top 25.

JR, since when is height a big advantage in golf? I don't think there's a strong correlation between height and success in golf.

David, I think everyone would agree that Wie has to Win to prove herself when she starts playing full time. However, given her age and schedule, she should be given a lot of credit for the results she has had, especially last year on the LPGA.

Michelle Wie is 6 feet and Paula Creamer is 5'9", while Annika is 5'6". So basically Michelle has the same height advantage over Paula that Paula has over Annika.

Paul W... wouldn't you have to agree that her length comes from her "longer" swing????? You take 2 guys, 1-5'9" the other 6'3" and both have the same swing motion and physical characteristics, the taller guy will generate more power (and distance). The reason everyone is so excited over Wie is her apparent length off the tee ("the big wiezy, oooh.. she hits it just as far, if not farther than pros on the PGA tour...) and the LPGA courses are shorter, less rough, and so on... you mean to tell me that the primary reason that Wie drives the ball farther than, let's say, Mi Hyun Kim is her talent alone... both are very talented yet Wie is considerably larger than Ms Kim. Once again, you can't teach height, ask Manute Bol.

Mr. Coulthard... You're comparing Wie's height to Annika and Creamer. The height was brought up as an advantage she has over the "entire" field. However, as Annika has proven, you don't need the height advantage that Wie definitely has if you are dedicated, have the determination and will to WIN. Maybe Wie will become an all around champion once she gets that elusive 1st pro win. Until then, all of this is just an exercise in blogging....

JR, I think her height helps her but it is only one factor. There are other aspects of her swing that help and it is possible to hit it long without being tall (note your comments about Annika). I cretainly don't think it's a huge genetic advantage that would guarentee that she dominates the rest of the field.

Obviously, Wie owes her greater length to innate physical abilties and characteristics. Namely, size, strength and action-specific flexibility. And, to paraphrase JR, you can develop strength and flexibility to a point, but you can't teach height.

Pawl W.... I only mentioned her height as her "obvious" genetic advantage over the rest of the lpga tour. I never said it guarenteed anything. Sure, she has apparently put the time in and has a sound game. It's just a matter of more experience until she becomes a winner. Some folks think that should happen at her next tournament while others think it will be at one of the lower key LPGA events in a year or so. Either way, she will or should in the future.

Why don't we all let her atleast get to double digit WINS before everyone wants to say she is the best ever. I know that won't happen but it would be nice if it did.

Hows this.... since anonymous sources wants to proclaim Wie "best ever"... I propose something like the PGA has... "best not to win a major" which until a few years ago belonged to Phil Mickelson... how about... Michelle Wie is the best female to not have won on the LPGA tour....

Once she does get that first win, the she can concentrate on that major. Hopefully all will come within the next year or so if not sooner.

Actually it is arm length that produces extra velocity in the swing. If it were only height golfers would wear platforms, cowboy boots or spike heels.

While arm length is generally proportional to height this is not always true. The key factor is velocity of the club head at impact. This comes from a combination of arm length, arm strength, and the ability to coordinate the swing so that the muscles of the thighs and torso are also contributing to the swing.

Height helps, but the whole equation is so complex that height alone is often not the determing factor.

To Wit, I offer the current 2006 driving list leaders:

Bubba Watson - 6-3 - 324.9 yds
J.B. Holmes - 5-11 - 315.5 yds
Camilo Villegas - 5-9 - 311.8 yds
Charles Warren - 5-8 - 310.9 yds
Tag Ridings - 6-1 - 309.5 yds

Two six footers bracketing three 5 somethings all 309.5 yds or better.

JR, fair enough, I won't call her the best ever until she wins a lot, unless one of the wins is the Masters ;)

:-)

JR

When you're right. You're right. As long as they restrict Michelle Wie to 8 events per year it is a pretty safe that she will never have a double digit win season like the one Annika had last year. But some of us don't agree that 10 wins per season is a standard that should be used to judge a player who is only allowed to play in 8 events. I know that sounds terribly unreasonable of us--but that is just how it is.

Mr Coulthard.... I did not mean to imply that I thought those "double digit" wins should come in a single season. Only that once she (Wie) has recorded those wins during her career that then and only then should she be considered for entry into the debate of best ever female golfer. Right now, for fans to make that claim for her, they would have to compare her overall PRO results to those of Annika... and she (Wie) is many majors, let alone wins away from even opening that conversation.

Oh, but Wie does have a lot of potential. It will be fun to watch and once she's ready, those debates are going to be a blast.

This blog is fun... I'll have to participate more often... thanks for putting up with me.

"Comment from: JR [Visitor]
One-Putt .... Isn't it a little obvious that Wie's physical size is a huge advantage over the other LPGA pros. She might only be 16 but she's a really big 16 or 26 or .... Remember, you can't teach height. Finally, kudos to David..."

If height was a dominating factor, six foot one inch Catherine Cartwright should be an LPGA superstar. Her best finish before coming in runner up to another sixteen year old at the ANZ was one tie for seventh place in a five year LPGA career.

Michelle put together a better LPGA record when she was fourteen than Catherine ever has in her life.

Catherine did win the 2000 Womens' Amateur Public Links.

I think height is a relatively unimportant factor in the ladies' game--but it would be quite important to give a woman a chance to compete against the men. Annika only tried at the Colonial which was probably the one PGA course, with all its doglegs, where she had any chance.

One-Putt... I really liked the analogy of Wie and Mi Hyun Kim. Both are very talented but Wie strikes the ball much farther...

No, height (or length of swing) is not the ONLY reason for length off the tee and length off the tee does not necessary equate to wins but it is a huge advantage when you have wedge into the green rather than a mid, long iron, or fairway wood. Whether a player utilizes their advantages is a different story. But you knew that!

The FACT remains that Wie does not possess the body of a typical female adult golfer. She's taller, I would argue that she's also stronger due to her constant training.

Qualifying just about everything said about Wie with a preface to age no longer is to her "advantage" since she is a PRO. Turning pro has made her age irrelevent. And Yes, with her inherent length off the tee, the shorter course setups being played on the LPGA tour, the lighter rough than standard PGA setups, and so on, this gives her a huge advantage over players not so gifted. But, it's only an advantage (and history has proven, so far) that she has not parlayed into an LPGA victory as of yet.

But now I have a question for you, why would you choose an obscure example in an attempt to prove your point when you knew, or should have known, that the jest of the post did not relate to this???? If you want to do the example thing there is many to go through of "one shot wonders" on both the PGA and LPGA tours where they had one good season and were never heard from again.... It could be argued by someone playing devils advocated that Wie could fall into the latter category. But to me it's useless to take that position since Wie is only starting out and we won't have any idea about the enormity of her career until mayber 10 years from now.

So, if you want to do examples, we can, I just need to know how the game (ie.. the game of "examples") is played. But sometimes these "games" can take away from the good natured posts and turn this thing into something it was not meant to be. I prefer to keep things light, how about you????

JR said: She's taller, I would argue that she's also stronger due to her constant training.
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JR, I'm pretty sure that constant training doesn't have anything to do with genetics. I'm not sure if it was you or someone else that claimed she had a genetic advantage.

Any of the girls who want to train hard can do so.

Johnny N..... your comment caught me off guard. When did I ever say that "constant training" has anything to do with genetics.... The genetic advantage I mentioned was height.... the constant training I mentioned has most likely helped her golf swing become more powerful with her long swing (thanks to her height/wing span). I am now beginning to see why some consider blogging more of a chore than anything else.....

Her height is an advantage but it is not the advantage that most people make it out to be.

There were excellent stats posted for the longest hitters on the pga, posted by John.

Bubba Watson - 6-3 - 324.9 yds
J.B. Holmes - 5-11 - 315.5 yds
Camilo Villegas - 5-9 - 311.8 yds
Charles Warren - 5-8 - 310.9 yds
Tag Ridings - 6-1 - 309.5 yds

If the tall guys like Tag Ridings at 6-1 can be matched by guys of 5-8 and 5-9, that suggests that girls who are 5 foot 7 or 5 foot 8 should equally be able to match Wie provided they put in the relevant training. If they can't match her, they should at least be able to get fairly close.

Guys of 5-8 averaging 310 yards shows me that, height is certainly not a necessity, even if it is an advantage.
These guys are outhitting Ernie Els who is 6 foot 3 and is considered a long hitter, so lets not overplay the height thing. It is an advantage but obviously it is possible to overcome it.
The other girls should be able to overcome it too against Wie, especially if they are 5-8 or 5-9 like Paula Creamer.
In 10 years there could be a whole heap of women hitting it about 285 yards in my opinion, because I think they are witnessing the benefits of training to Wie.

If anybody is showing the benefits of training, it is Annika. She was only one of the better players until she got serious about the gym work. Now she may be the best of all time.

Good point Shanks.

Does that mean that Annika's potential is pretty limited, strength wise, because she isn't really that long is she.

Also, her swing looks ever so lazy and relies alot of timing. Could she not just put a bit of welly into it. It just always seems to go exactly the same.
I know that means she is very consistant, but surely when she plays with Tiger so much, surely she knows the benefits of hitting it that bit further, even if you are less accurate, because you have a shorter next shot. Go on, give it some welly Annika please.

JR

Just because she is a pro, does not mean Michelle Wie's age is no longer a factor. As long as Paula Creamer's age is considered a factor because she is still a teenager, and as long as Paula Creamer's age was a factor when she became the youngest winner of a multi-round event at something like 18 yrs and 8 mos, and as long as that accomplishment is touted by Wie critics who consider Paula Creamer to be better than Michelle Wie--how can you say that Michelle Wie's age is not a factor? Also, how can you say that her age is not a factor when she is still attending high school, and she is barred from LPGA membership because of her age?

As far as double digit wins are concerned. Will you ask the Paula Creamer supporters to stop talking about how Paula Creamer is a proven winner until she has achieved double digit wins? Will you take Chris Baldwin to task for his claim follwing the Evian, that Paula Creamer is better than Michelle Wie--and always will be? Does the possiblity of being a one season wonder apply only to Michelle Wie and not to Paula Creamer?

As long as it is acceptable for Chris Baldwin to make his claim, I see nothing wrong with expressing the view that Michelle Wie is the greatest female golfer ever. Obviously this involves making projections into the future--but if projections are acceptable for Wie critics to make, why are they not acceptable for Wie supporters.

Actually, Annika is one of the longest hitters on the LPGA Tour. I would guess that she is already maxed out, distance-wise.

Actually, height cannot be "overcome" really. The shorter players who hit the ball as long as much taller ones simply possess certain qualities that the latter don't. However, if they were taller, they'd hit the ball even farther. It's really not hard to understand.

Norman wrote - "A 2nd place in an LPGA major is a far greater achievement than a win at the ANZ Australian Masters."
Norman-
Dont't spin and/or discount 16 year old Amy Yang's victory. She won! She didn't finish second. She is an amateur. Michelle Wie never won any professional event as an amateur and never will now.

You Wie Fanatics are hilarious. There are 13 criteria to qualify into the Women's Open and Michelle Wie to date meets none of them for 2006. Fay is being very charitible by hinting he will consider her virtual standing on the '06 money list. Two starts prior to Open Qualifying hardly gives her a lock on a top 35 standing - virtually speaking.

She has failed to play her way into the '06 Open - anybody else would have to qualify. If she's all that, it should be a snap. Inconvenient? Gee, is it inconvenient for the others too.

Or she could go out and win one of her two starts to get in. That might actually prove something. Everything else is nothing but speculation.

For JR you stated the point I was trying to make by using Catherine Cartwright as an example. The only difference between Amy and Michelle compared to other players their age or in most cases older, is their work ethic.

It takes a special girl to go out after school everyday and practice till dark. They also play golf all weekend long, week after week, month after month and year after year. Both these gals do this and yet maintain excellent grades in school at the same time. That is what makes them stand out from the rest, not their height. They were not genetically created to play golf, they were developed into good golfers by sacrificing their youth.

For Shanks, you're absolutely "right on" using Annika as an example. That is why Michelle hired a Hockey Coach (I hope she keeps her teeth) to work on her upper body strength. Annika is one of Michelle's golf idols and she knows what happened after Annika hit the gym.

The only thing lacking in Michelle's game is "Killer Instinct", a trait she needs to develop to be a winner. Maybe Morgan will help Michelle find this in herself by motivating her to win an event soon.

Michelle has been relying on Sponsor's exemptions for quite some time now. Maybe it is time for Michelle to step up to the first tee at Turtle Bay this coming Monday and earn her place in the field for the SBS.

At golf.com there is an interesting article written following last year's Samsung. Annika gets the hardware, Wie gets the hype. This was certainly not written by a Wie Warrior. But just look at what was said about Annika. "...her incomparable success over the last five years--seven majors, 41 victories, nearly $12 million in earnings. And perhaps the most impressive statistic of all is finishing in the top three 63 percent of the time." If Anika's finishing in the top three 63% of the time(it should have been 64%) is considered perhaps her most impressive statistic over the course of her last five years, then perhaps we should not sneer at a 15 year old amateur who was able to finish in the top three 50% of the time from the 2004 Samsung to the 2005 Weetabix British Open.

The criteria for exemptions into the US Women's Open are blatantly biased in favor of LPGA members. Please tell me why Michelle Wie's performance last year does not deserve an exemption, but Jill McGill's does. Jill McGill has never won in 261 LPGA starts including 254 as a member of the LPGA. She finished 35th on last years money list with $364,340 in 25 events--less than 60% of what Wie would have earned in just 8 events had she been a pro. In the 3 majors other than the US Open she finished well below Wie with a T30 in the Kraft a T54 in the LPGA Championship and a T64 in the Weetabix. The only reason she did not finish below Wie in the US Open was the fact that she did not finish the US Open. She missed the cut, one of 8 cuts she missed last year. Will someone please explain why the criteria for qualification for the Open are such that Jill McGill gets an exemption and Michelle Wie does not? The last time Michelle Wie got a special exemption it was designed to correct for such a perceived flaw in the criteria. Can we all not admit there is something wrong with criteria which would give an exemption to Jill McGill while denying one to Michelle Wie based upon their 2005 performance on the LPGA?

Paula Creamer has been mentioned in this blog.

I actually think Paula Creamer is a better player than Michelle Wie. Anybody with me on this one?

What Wie would have won?? That's the point she did not win anything. I know, I know, she just turned pro and she was only 15 at the time, but here are the facts her career earnings to date stand at $0 and her career wins also stand at 0. I think Wie skeptics are tired of the would've and should've regarding Michelle Wie. Her results were great for anybody, she showed that she can finish high on the leaderboard in nearly any LPGA event she competes in, what she has not shown is the ability to win any of those tournaments and as somebody already mentioned she has met NONE of the current criteria for qualifying for the 2006 Women's U.S. Open. To hear Wie fans complain that she is somehow being treated unfairly because they won't break rules for her is beyond annoying, remember this is the same girl who has been playing Women's and Men's events for years without once having to qualify(all sponsers exemptions). I do actually recall her Monday qualifying once, once! The most impressive stat about Annika is her majors and overall wins over that span of time not her top 3's, you can bet she sees each one of those as dissapointing defeats not moral vicotories as you Wie fans seem to. Also you are looking at a 5 year span of unparrelled consistemcy and dominance(wins, wins, wins) vs. a 1 year window for Michelle Wie with no wins intermixed with her high finishes. Jim you are free to continue this debate in your own mind, but's that the only place you have a chance of winning it.

When you take Michelle vs; Annika, Paula, etc. and DON'T consider age, Annika, Paula, etc. are better than Michelle. When you put age into the mix, Michelle is better.

Remember the first time Paula finished 2nd in an LPGA tournament was 2 years ago. Last year she was able to build on that finish to win twice on the LPGA and twice in Japan.

Michelle finished 2nd and 3rd for the first time last year, (she finished 2nd 3 times and 3rd once). How she will build on last year? Stay tuned...

Justin. You say what Wie would have earned would mean nothing?
How about Natalie Gulbis? She earned over a million bucks, never won a thing, has no 2nd place finishes and only 2 t-3's and a list of other ties and placements.
Win 0
2nd or t-2 0
2 x t-3
3 x t-4 and the list goes on. Thats in 5 years on the lpga tour. She has a host of amateur wins etc all of which mean exactly nothing in the professional tour. She obviously has won amateur events, how come that isn't translating into pro wins?

Every player is an individual, each will win when it is their time. All the woulda, shoulda and coulda stuff means nothing. MP may very well fold now that she is a pro (doubtful I know but there are enough examples out there to suggest the possibilty).
MW may never win an event (again doubtful)
MP had the same opportunities to win last year as MW. The only difference I can see in the end results for both of them is that MW is by far the more mature loser.
Actually, I am hoping that they will both win events this year as they are both excellent golfers.
What I really want to see is good golf, let the best man ( or in this case, woman ) win

Justin said:
What Wie would have won?? That's the point she did not win anything. I know, I know, she just turned pro and she was only 15 at the time, but here are the facts her career earnings to date stand at $0
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Justin, you really are petty.
It is obvious why her career earnings are at $0. First tournament she was disqualified where she would have won plenty of money.
The next 2 tournaments were against men where she was trying to make a big breakthrough. Although she didn't make the cuts she did very well.

In my opinion, in her next lpga tournament, if she doesn't get dq then she will win plenty of money, and your little stat will prove pointless.

Putt4par said
MP had the same opportunities to win last year as MW. The only difference I can see in the end results for both of them is that MW is by far the more mature loser.
--------------------------

Bravo.

If Michelle Wie wanted to do so, she could do what Morgan Pressel did and threaten to sue. The LPGA did not feel confident that their 18 year old rule would hold up under court review. Last year Michelle Wie played well enough to earn an Open exemption if she had been an LPGA pro. While she chose to be an amateur, had she chosen to be a pro it would not have helped her--because only the earnings of LPGA pros count and the LPGA practices age discrimination against those who are under 18. She is being denied equal opportunity to earn her living by a rule which unconsitutionally discriminates against those who were under 18 last year.

But the issue here is not so much whether Michelle Wie gets an exemption. I suspect Michelle Wie will win before the Open making the whole issue moot. But how is this any of Morgan Pressel's business--particularly since the same laws that would have insisted that Morgan Pressel be given her age waiver, would also insist that money an underage amateur would have earned be treated in the same matter as an LPGA member's earnings in determining Open eligibility?

If Paula Creamer is better than Michelle Wie, then I would invite her to join Michelle Wie in this year's Casio Open. The Japanese seem to like Paula, so I am sure there would be no problem getting an exemption for her to play. If Michelle Wie against the men is such an attraction--wouldn't adding Paula Creamer to the mix make it that much more interesting.

Mr. Coulthard.... there are a few differences between Pressel petitioning to join the tour and Wie. Primarily... Pressel is almost 18 hence she will become "age eligible" about 4 months or so into the year, Wie (as everyone likes to keep drawing attention to her age) is ONLY almost 17 and will not turn "age eligible" until more than a year from now (ie.. not this season but next season).

Would you please list the criteria for being invited to an open... I think it's Top 20 previous Year (Wie: 23rd), Top 35 current year money list (Wie: $0), does the LPGA use world ranking yet tournament entry??? if they do (Wie: unranked) Please tell me what peformance Wie did at LAST YEARS us open or this year that qualifies her automatically for the Ladies USOPen.

Now, be serious about not being able to earn a living. This girl just signed a $10Million endorsement deal and she lives at home. Isnt that argument just a little ludicrous??? It may just be me but that argument just doesnt seem to hold any water....

I apologize if it sounds as though Im frustrated but I am. Many things I have read in this single blog do not coincide with logic. Once again, isnt blogging supposed to be fun... not a chore... It looks Im wrong in that regards.

I know it was top 35 current year's money list and top 40 for the previous entire year's money list. Last time she was given an exemption based on how she would have done on the current partial year's list--but this time the same logic wouls already apply to the previous entire year's list. As far as earning a living is concerned--I do not see that the wealth or the residence of the victim of age discrimination has much to do with it. If she is old enough to play in the Open, she is old enough to be qualified in a manner that does not discriminate against her on the basis of age. But I am quite sure she would not take the Pressel route in this matter.

Its not discrimination.... it's rules.... once she gets to be 17 and change, then she can petition like the others have done and most likely get approved for full time status. She knew the consequences prior to turning pro.... All Pressel did was petition for admission... would she her grandfather have sued for admission. Some think yes. but it never happened. The previous year money list does not apply. It might have if she was still an amateur but once she turned pro, everything changed... Did she turn pro too soon... I would say yes but obviously some can think of 10 million reasons why she should (plus they are buying a new house in CA.. how convenient). It's the old free choice syndrome... make a choice then live with the consequences.

Michelle should play both LPGA events in Hawaii only (out of respect) and then play exemptions on the mens' Asian tour exclusively for the next two years. After a couple of years in Asia to perfect her game, she would be competative in any PGA field she entered or absolutely dominate the LPGA game. The bonus is if she earns a card on the Asian mens' PGA tour her earnings count in the world rankings. She would also bank tens of millions of dollars in the process with her appearance fees.

Putting on Asia tour greens are like putting on a glass tabletop. The course length at Asian events is only slightly shorter than US PGA events. She has developed the shots to keep pace with most Asian players.

Nike and Sony would love this.

Is it possible that Wie makes a cut on the PGA tour... yes. Is it possible Wie could eek out a living on the PGA tour... yes. Is it possible that she win on the PGA tour... yes. HOWEVER, the last 2 (living and winning) are very unlikely.

Folks, what is your fixation about seeing Wie play and win on the PGA tour? I just don't understand it. Could Annika stay in the top 125 for a full year on the PGA tour... I think she would be around the bubble.

Im starting to think that most of you dont really believe Wie can make it or win on the PGA tour either. I just think you want to have some lively debates.

Jim Coulthard: "...If Michelle Wie against the men is such an attraction--wouldn't adding Paula Creamer to the mix make it that much more interesting. "

As I suspect you well know, Jim, Paula Creamer's LPGA driving average last year was 248.6 yds (vs. Annika's 265 yds)
I doubt that bodes well for being competitive at the Casio.

While over the last 5 years driving distance is only weakly correlated to success on the PGA Tour, there does appear to be a minimum acceptable level of around 275 to 280 yards. So Annika's 265 is probably too short to cut the mustard, and Paula's 248.6 just ain't in the ballpark.

Michelle Wie's 286.5 (PGA Statitics 2006) is well over the threshold.

Since the highest driving average on the LPGA last year was only 270.3 (Note, the LPGA Stats page only lists tour members, so you won't find 2005 stats for either Michelle or Morgan), it would appear that none of the other ladies is quite ready to square off against the men.

(NOTE: I was unable to find a reasonably recent driving stat for Morgan Pressel so I can not bring her into this comparison.)

For the record:

The greatest Lady Golfer of all time is not Annika Sorenstam. It is Babe Zaharias.

In 12 years of competition Annika Sorenstam has only 9 majors and 66 victories.

In only 8 years, Babe had 41 victories, 10 majors, won all the majors in the 1950 season (the slam), and set LPGA records for fastest to 10, 20 and 30 tour victories which still stand to this day. This despite fighting cancer for the last three years of her career.

Until someone can top that, she will remain the greatest Lady Golfer ever.

Pressel tended to drive around the same distance as Creamer in events they played together last year. Her average on the LPGA last year was around 250. Interestingly they both were around 10-15 yards shorter than Miyazato who is only 5'2", so height isn't everything.

Creamer has been working on increasing her distance over the off season. There was some indication from what Gulbis said at the Women's World of Golf last month that Creamer had made some progress lengthening her drives, though I haven't seen stats. She didn't seem to be hitting it as straight though, and it seemed to hurt her game.

John, Babe was great, but she helped found the LPGA, and there wasn't that much competition back then. IMHO Annika has a much more impressive golf record, though Babe was certainly more impressive as an overall athelete.

That's a pretty bold statement! I'll grant you that for her era, she was untouchable for the most part. Usually, we can never compare eras. The Babe Ruth debate is a classic example.

It would be tough to decide... which is better, 40 odd wins less advanced equipment and a scoring average of around 75 against a very limited field of play or 60 plus wins with better equipment and a scoring average of around 70 or so once she got her first victory against a much deeper and talented field.

Babe Zaharias' career was cut tragically short. In a debate about stats, you can only speak of what happend, not what would've happened.

Some would argue that Annika has the better overall record and more deserving of the best ever title. Unless of course folks in this blog want to bestow that upon Wie with here current record?????

The problem of course is you can never compare across eras. The term "greatest" will always be arbitrary.

Babe was 24 when she first held a golf club and 36 when she turned pro. So what she "might have been in her prime" is also open for question.

In her era, the Babe was the best. In her era, Annika is the best. And what is most exciting to me, a new era is opening as we watch.

JR, I agree in the case of both Babe's. Zaharias still hold records today. Ruth still holds records today. Eventually both will probably drop down the standings.

But I bet no baseball player will ever again simultanously hold the records for most home-runs in a season, most home-runs in a career and most shut-outs in a season by a left-handed pitcher (most people don't know Ruth held that last one :-)

I suspect that the names of both Babes will be remembered as long as their respective sports are played. And I doubt that Annika will soon be forgotten either.

Don't write Annika off so soon, she still has many trophies to lift up in her career.

It will be quite awhile before the young maids in waiting unseat her from the throne.

Morgan Pressel averaged 250.87 yards, based on seven events in 2005. From a high of 264 in the Wendy's to a low of 230.3 in the Michelob.

Michelle averaged 268.31 yards in seven events for 2005. From a high of 283.8 at the McDonalds to a low of 250.9 at the US Womens Open where she used a three wood or iron on some of the measured holes.

Michelle hits a three wood or iron on most LPGA par four holes to set up her approach shot. Only the par fives and longer par fours have the driver in play. This may skew the average somewhat depending on the event.

why dont you like at Greens-in-regulation... that would be a more telling stat. Or how about driving accuracy. There you go, what is better, a 250 yard drive in the fairway or a 280/300 drive in the rough, under a tree?????

When stats are chosen, maybe useful should be considered....

JR, if you watch golf at all, you will know that the trend is becoming that a 280 yard drive in the rough is much better than a 250 yard drive in the fairway.

JR claimed that Wie is almost 17.
She has only just turned 16 and has practically a full season to play as a 16 year old.

JR also claimed that Wie could petition the lpga when she turns 17 like Pressel did. The reality is that she could have petitioned them at 16 if she wanted, but she didn't and doesn't want to do so yet. She wants to continue at school and get her education there.

That is important as regards the earning issue.
Some people are claiming that Wie should only get into the US Open if she qualifies in the money list.
- She cannot qualify in the money list unless she is an lpga member.
- She cannot become an lpga member until she 18.
- Therefore, her earnings should be computed as if she were an lpga member.
- Last season, her placings would have given her enough earnings to get her into the top 40, if she had been an lpga pro.
- Therefore she should get an exemption. By the way, if anyone actually believes anything other than she will be granted an exemption, then they are kidding themselves. I think it is a very very safe bet that she will be granted it.

JR said:
Folks, what is your fixation about seeing Wie play and win on the PGA tour? I just don't understand it. Could Annika stay in the top 125 for a full year on the PGA tour... I think she would be around the bubble.

Im starting to think that most of you dont really believe Wie can make it or win on the PGA tour either. I just think you want to have some lively debates.
-----------------------------

Sorry JR, but I quoted you here because maybe if you read it back you might realise how ridiculous it sounds.
Firstly how Annika would perform on the pga has absolutely nothing to do with how Wie would perform. Wie is stronger and plays with more spin and has the length off the tee.
If Annika had Wie's length and strength she could easily get her pga tour card, but she doesn't.

As regards whether she can compete full time on the pga tour, it is too early to decide, but her progress thus far indicates that she could do so.

As regards the fascination with watching her compete on the pga, if you don't understand that, then you musn't be dialed in at all.

If Paul Casey were to win a pga event, would it excite people? Probably not. If Wie were would it? Of course it would.

Just remember, you guys started this....

Johnny N; On the MENS tour, sure just bomb it down the length of the hole and hope that it doesnt get blocked... most of the time, it's a small wedge to the green from rough... but come on, we're talking about the Ladies tour where that is NOT going on.... get real....

Johnny N#2... Wie is about 8 months from being 17... why are you so picky about everything????

Johnny N#3... I used Annika as a legitimate example... if you think that Wie is a better golfer than Annika, you have serious problems!

It's been my experience that when folks don't have much of an argument they come up with obscure facts to somehow jusitfy everything by changing the subject.... Johnny, why didnt you reply about the better stats of GIR and Driving accuracy???? Because those numbers would not be beneficial to your view.....

That's it.. I've had enough of this junk.... gloves are off.... let's do it.

And Johnny, yes I do play golf. I've played since around 1983.

Driving accuaracy only matters to long hitters when the pin is tucked in the front of the green. Then you will see them dial down from the tee to hit a fairway so they can get maximum spin on their appraoch shot. Otherwise, it's bombs away.

JR said: if you think that Wie is a better golfer than Annika, you have serious problems!

Nobody would argue that Wie is a better golfer on LPGA courses than Annika (at least not yet). Scoring averages alone show her dominance (Annika had a scoring average of 69.33 versus Wie who was 2nd place with 70.76 if you count the first 2 rounds of Samsung)

But there is a legitimate argument that Wie is better on PGA courses given her length, backspin, and the amount she has worked on handling PGA course conditions. We'll likely never know who is better for sure since Annika doesn't plan to try again.

JR for 2005 Tiger Woods only hit 54.6 percent of his fairways and ended up 188th on the list. His GIR for 2005 was 69.9 percent number six on the list. For PPR Tiger averaged 28.70 and was ranked thirty third on the tour for 2005. His driving distance for 2005 averaged 316.1 placing him second on the list. Tiger won six times.

If you look at Michelle's stats for the 2005 LPGA events (six statistical events)and compare them to the rest of the LPGA tour she mirrors many of Tiger's stats with one glaring exception, putting.

Her LPGA driving distance average was good enough to finish third on the LPGA list.

Fairways hit she would rank 50th on the LPGA tour. Her percentage hit is around sixty.

Her GIR percentage would have placed her at 14th on the LPGA tour.

Her putting average of 30.16 per round places her in a tie for 41st on the LPGA tour. She needs to drop this average by one stroke or more to place herself in a position to win events.

JR,

On your first point, you should watch the Nabisco in March. It is quite a long course, but also it is a long hitters course.
Many of the lpga courses with dog legs don't allow long drives, but this one does.
I think the long hitters will prosper here, whether they are landing it on the fairway or not.

On your 2nd point, Wie is 8 months away from 17, that is still alot, and more importantly, she is still due to play the vast majority of her events as a 16 year old.

She has played 1 lpga event as a 16 year old, and is due to play 6 more as a 16 year old. The samsung then should be just when she turns 17.
That's the point I was making, that her 16 year old stats have barely begun, particularly on the lpga side of things.

On your 3rd point, yes Annika is a better all round golfer than Wie, but the point we were arguing is whether Wie would be able to compete on the pga tour.
You have used the example of Annika to incinuate that because she is better than Wie, but said she wasn't good enough for the pga, you think Wie shouldn't be good enough.

The reality is that although Annika is a better golfer than Michelle in the overall sense she is not better on pga courses. Michelle's superior length, strength and spin, more than negate Annika's superior putting and wedge play. The reality is that although Annika is better with a wedge or a short iron than Michelle, that Annika would rarely get to have these clubs in her hands for an approach shot. Annika would more likely have a long iron and that makes it more difficult for her to get her approach shot close to the hole.
This then has the effect of making her superior putting useless to her, because she just doesn't have many makable putts.

So although Annika has better GIR, and putting stats, these stats would be of no use to her when it would come to the pga course tournaments.

Good points Johnny!

You guys win.... all of this would be better discussed at the local pub over a pint or 2 :-)

Everybody here has had some good points to put forward, but at the end of the day, this is a golf blog; all we can do is argue - there is no proper answer.

Taking into account Annika's great gain in distance in the last few years, I believe there would only be 10 or 15 yards between their (Annika and Michelle's) drives. And we all know who has the better second shot - and better pitches, chips, bunker shots and putting.

The reason distance is important is precisely because of the type of the second shot it allows. I will always pick a wedge/pitch shot over mid iron shots and mid iron shots over long iron shot. I will pick Josephine Nobody's short iron shot over Annikda's lone iron shots any day.

FUNNY FUNNY FUNNY FUNNY

Morgan Pressel is going to have her rookie blogs this year. What is she going to say after each tournament?

"That ***** Michelle Wie beat me again. If only she didn't keep hitting her 3 wood passed my driver, I might have some chance of winning".

I think Michelle Wie is probably about 20 yards further than Annika on driving at this stage.
However I don't think this will show up in stats, because I don't think Michelle will be hitting driver on many off many of the tees.

A good point Norman. Final statistics are always a combination of what players have the ability to do moderated by what a particular course may allow them to do.

If anything over a 300 yard drive is out-of-bounds on in the water on a particular hole, Bubba and company will drive it shorter than 300 even though they are able to drive 340+.

So as you suggest Norman, Michelle's superior distance may not mean as much on the LPGA simply because the course isn't long enough or straight enough contain her long stuff on many holes.

PS: Congratulations Shanks! You seem to have created one of those blog entries that just won't die. Four days old, 120+ comments and still going. Are you perchance related to the Energizer Bunny?

Welcome back Norman.

You're right on target John. The rest of the topics at TravelGolf have few postings to their credit until they put out the name Michelle Wie.

Both sides of the Wie argument, will rise up to have their say about this high school girl. This is an indication of just how powerful a draw this young lady may become in the world of golf. Everyone in the world who loves golf has an opinion on Michelle including me.

For Michelle to be a factor on either tour is really nothing to do with distance and everything to do with consistency.

I can think of many men on the PGA tour that hit drives shorter than Michelle, but bring consistency to the field of play. Annika and Tiger both win on their respective tour because they avoid the double bogey and make putts when they need them to get the job done. Pressure fuels their fire and this was developed thru hundreds of rounds of competitive golf.

The old saying "driving is for show and putting is for dough" is what keeps her from winning on the LPGA tour or making the cut on the PGA tour. She needs to eliminate the one bad round by putting better and somehow play more competitive rounds.

Paula Creamer in 2005 played eight straight LPGA events and won the Sybase on the 22nd of May. She then played six events before she won the Evian on the 23rd of July.

In the same time period before Paula's first win, Michelle had played just three LPGA events and by Paula's second winning performance she had played in a total of five LPGA events prior to placing second behind Paula at the Evian.

Until Michelle plays more, putts better and eliminates the bogey or double from her game it will be tough for her to win an LPGA event or make the cut on the PGA tour.

As far as I could tell at the John Deere, Michelle Wie was last in driving distance--but it was close. But because her length was so much based on technique, rather than strength--she was more handicapped by balls in the rough than the rest of the players, and in this area it might not have been close. She player nearly mistake free golf for most of two days, and the most it could get her was a stroke to spare over the cut line.

By contrast, on the LPGA it has seemed that she has left numerous stokes out there on the course--and she still comes in close at the end.

An interesting fact about last year's John Deere. A 36 hole score of 140 or worse got you cut. If you look at the top 10 finishers and ties, then 5 of the "best" golfers there would have been cut if their two worst rounds had come on day 1 and day 2 instead of mixing a good round in the middle.

Which just illustrates how important making the cut is. If you can make the cut even by a single stroke, you have a chance of finishing well toward the top by the end of the tournament.

Jim, Your comments re: Michelle's driving at the John Deere last year are most likely accurate--2005 was her worst year so far for driving distance on PGA Courses. I attribute that to the fact the she was perfecting her technique.

In 2003 as a 13 year old with mostly just a raw natural swing she was belting it out 280+ yards. In 2004 and 2005 she was developing a "polished professional" swing and her distance dropped dramatically to 271 in '04 and 266 in '05. I would say this is the normal pattern for any swing adjustments, certainly it is the pattern Tiger seems to follow throughout his widely publicized "tinkering" with his swing.

This year she seems to putting power together with technique (granted one tournament doesn't tell the story). But her current PGA 281.8 averages a round of 274 when her confidence was down and 300 when it was up.

If she plays the John Deere again this year it will be interesting to see what she does with the extra distance.

Since Wie's first round at the SONY was in very windy conditions which probably forced her to dial down her swing, the 300 in the 2nd round was probably more representiative of what we might expect from her this year. Of course, there may be other situations where she will dial down.

One Putt said:
For Michelle to be a factor on either tour is really nothing to do with distance and everything to do with consistency.
**************************

Exactly.

"the money she would have earned through her finishes would have put her in the top 35 on the tour's money list. That is one of the criteria for receiving an automatic exemption."

Wrong! Actually doing it is one of the criteria for an automatic exemption from qualifying.

You Wie-nuts are hilarious. You really do think Morgan Pressel seeks out reporters so she can talk about Michelle Wie. I'd bet you all that Morgan is really sick of answering questions from Wie-sycophantic reporters trying to stir up trouble. Its clear to anyone with a brain that Morgan answers questions with brutal honesty - and THAT is refreshing.

Michelle Wie has yet to meet ANY criteria for qualifying for the '06 Open. She had an exemption for '04, T13 along with Paula Creamer made her exempt for '05. She barfed up the lead on the first hole of Round 4 and never recovered - and played poorly enough to LOSE her exempt status. Time for her to qualify. I know all you Wie-Nuts think the she should never be treated like any ordinary player, but that's why you're all nuts!

And to you Sir Shanks-alot - shame on you for further trying to stir up controversy.

If Pressel was sick of answering questions about Wie all she had to say was "It's up to the USGA" I don't find her responses refresing at all, she sounds incredibly petty.

Pressel just got a special exemption to get an early entrance in to the LPGA, now in her first interview since than, she says Wie shouldn't get any special treatment.

Well, it is Pressel's place to express her opinion on the issue, plain and simple.

Okay, we are getting too many John's in this blog...To clarify, I am the John that has generally supported Michelle's getting an exemption to the Open, as opposed to the other John above who is opposed to that option....

Thought I would clarify lest some folks think a Schizophrenic was loose in the blog-o-sphere.

I am also the John responsible for continually dragging boring statistical comparisons into the discussion rather than relying on the fire and glory of pure rhetoric to make my points. What can I say, I'm an engineer by trade.

I think Michelle Wie will get an automatic exemption with a victory. If she does not, who knows if she would even want or accept a special exemption. She is not afraid of going through qualifying. The only situation in which it would be very important to her to compete in this year's open would be if she needed it for the 3rd leg of the grand slan--in which case she would be automatically exempt. Otherwise it would be more important to the USGA and the LPGA for her to be in Newport than it would be for her--and there really would be very little chance of her missing the event in any case.

Yes, Pressel could answer the reporters questions about exemptions just by saying "It's not up to me", but she does not. I am convinced that her answers are an attempt to get into Wie's head. She knows when she says it that it will get back to Wie.

Shanks, you might be right, though Pressel has more to worry about from players she will see more this year. Still seems dumb to me, would Ali say "I'd fight Fraser, but I don't think he's ready yet"?

This picture from last year's KN tends to validate your point with Wie fuming and Pressel smirking (though I might be reading too much in to it.)

http://www.golfdigest.com/newsandtour/index.ssf?/newsandtour/gw20050930bunker.html

Shanks,
I read the complete transcript of the interview that Pressel gave.

Throughout the interview, she was asked about the younger player and she kept saying that herself, Michelle and Paula were obviously the most important three.

I think she is very eager to put herself forward as Annika the leader, then followed by the 3 girls of Pressel, Wie and Creamer.

In my opinion, she is overexagerating her own level, but she may well prove that point of view wrong.

She then went on to name the next wave of girls behing them.

I think she is desperate for a rivaly between herself and the other best girls, to give herself the maximum amount of publicity and attention.

Also, I agree that there is certainly a big element of trying to niggle at Wie and put her off her game, by talking a big game.
The thing about it is though, it you talk the talk, you then have to follow by walking the walk.

Prediction: Pressel to finish ahead of Wie no more than three times in the eight starts, and probably less than that.

Three times? You are giving too much credit to pressel's game. seriously if pressel beats wie just single time, I will consider it big accomplishment for her.

Creamer was talking to media she is beter than wie and wie is being overhyped during amateur days and when they met first time in 3rd round of 2004 wendy's championship, Wie not only beat creamer by 4 strokes depite she made qurdruple bogey , but also creamer had to fight tears during round probably because she was being outdroven by wie's 3 wood.

ATTENTION:
Bo Bae Song, and Na Yeon Choi have got sponsors exemptions for the SBS Open.

Jay,
I don't think Pressel will beat Wie any more than once or twice, but I'm being safe in cash of a dq or a withdrawal.

Also, it's a pity that Pressel has a warm up event before facing Wie in the Fields, but even with that advantage I expect Wie to win.
That is win in the head to head.
The tournament outright is another matter, but there's a decent chance.

Is it still possible that Wie is trying to qualify today at the SBS Open? I assume not, or it would have been in the press.

Only amateurs and non exempt players are allowed to enter monday qualifier. So wie is definitely out of sbs open.

Thanks jay, I found the quote from lpga.com..


Professionals who are not LPGA members (including PGA members or apprentices, mini- tour players and/or foreign tour players) are not eligible to enter the qualifying round.

I'm sure Pressel was attempting gamesmanship--but I don't think she was very wise. Now she has to start her professional career(not counting Q-School) with two events in Hawaii where she has made herself hated. If she performs badly and the crowd is happy about her poor play I think she could very easily fall apart.

I think the Wies are making a statement this month to the LPGA. The LPGA is starting the year with two events in Hawaii going up against the Olympics. The LPGA could have had Michelle in both events if they had been willing to grant her some extra exemptions--but the LPGA refused to alter rules for Michelle after they just got through altering rules for Morgan. Now we can get a clear measure of how much interest there is in the LPGA with and without Michelle Wie.

Yes, indeed Jim.
How much tv coverage will each event get. What will the viewership be.
How big will the crowds be.

I'm guessing The Fields will be a big winner in that.

TV coverage is already set. It will be the same for both. As they are only broadcast on The Golf Channel, don't expect too much of a ratings difference. However, there is no doubt that the crowds will be bigger for the Fields because of Wie. It would be the same sort of thing for Miyazato in Japan - local pride. That's not to say Wie wouldn't draw the biggest crowds anywhere, but in Hawaii it will be inordinately so.

I have Golf Channel as part of basic cable. A lot of people who have linited interest in golf have the Golf Channel as part of a package. I expect a lot of these people to watch Fields but not SBS. I expect a sizeable difference in ratings. Let us see the results when they come in.

You think Bivens should have given Wie the extra exemption? As much as I'd like to see Wie play in the SBS, Bivens has to draw the line somewhere.

She drew the line by making Morgan wait, and then reversed herself on that one. She could give new events the freedom to give exemptions outside any limits on the number. The Evian and 3 Bridges could be allowed to give exemptions based upon their European or Korean affiliation, etc. Bivens caters to the anti-Wie sentiment on the LPGA. How would an extra exemption or two be a more serious matter than what she did with Morgan Pressel?

I think she reversed her predecessor on Pressel and the 18 year old requirement is pretty clearly flexible based on the situation.

Increasing the exemptions would be a more permanent change. My sense is it's something they are thinking about doing, but didn't want to change now and look like they were willing to bend the rules just for the convenience of the Wies.

Anyway, it's too bad. It would also be too bad if Wie doesn't get in the the US Open, it's probably the only chance us freezing New Englanders will get to see her for a while.

I just dont understand why most of you, if not all, think that Pressel is some hack... Once you're at a certain level in golf, it basically comes down to short game/putting. I think most of you are giving Pressel too little credit and Wie WAY TOO MUCH. I can see it now, Pressel beats Wie by 1 and all you have to say is, "well, its just one tournament, she obviously got lucky, or... Wie wasnt really trying that hard and Pressel was...." AAAAARRRRGGGGGHHHHH.... this is frustrating....

JR

You seem to be saying that Pressel is better than Wie--but if Pressel can finish ahead of Wie in just one tournament by just one stroke, you want to be able to count that one tournament as proof that Pressel is better and ignore all the results in tournaments where Wie did better. Care for head to head over the whole year to see who is better?

Thanks to Shanks for the info.
I hope it is on Golf Channel UK also.

I'll be able to watch the Fields but should be away for all or some of the SBS, so I'm not that sorry that she isn't in that one.

I agree with Paul that Bivens had to draw a line somewhere. I don't think they could have increased the exemptions just for her on this occasion.

In a couple of years though, I think they could bring in a rule where if someone plays a minimum of 15 events or so they would be able to play on other tours.
That would be specifically to let Wie try her pga ambitions and would make good sense.

I think the US Open will be resolved without much ado.

Jim Coulthard: Care for head to head over the whole year to see who is better?
********************************
Excellent idea Jim, and just to prime the pump, here's how it came out for the two events that all three entered last year (if they were the only three competing, highest finish wins):

Michelle 1st and 3rd
Morgan - 1st and T2nd
Paula - 2nd and T2nd


Whole Season Paula vs. Morgan:
Morgan 3 wins, 2 losses and 1 tie

Whole Season Paula vs. Michelle:
Michelle 5 wins, 3 losses


To quote Jerry Lee Lewis...gonna be a "Whole Lotta Shakin' Goin' On" this year. Morgan vs. Paula may be a better show than some people think!

Michelle, Michelle, Michelle, you guys are like school boys with your little crushes on Wie. You know her every statistic, her every measurement, and her every move, frankly it's a bit creepy. You guys are like the paparazzi stalking her, "I hear she's going to be playing the SBS, no my sources tell me she's out" Listen to yourselves, I'm assuming your grown men, for god sakes get out and live a litle bit. I thought my fantasy football playing friends were bad, but this is just plain scary, memeorizing the every move, shot and breath of teenage girl golfers is, well pathetic. It sounds like 8th grade in here, did you hear what Morgan said about Michelle? I heard Paula's been checking out Michelle's boyfriend....

Too bad for poor Michelle if she misses out on the U.S. Open. I hope she can find a way to console herself somewhat by playing in a couple more Asian events for 1.5 mil each. Oh woe is she, oh woe she be.

Screw the LPGA Michelle. Earn your stripes and pad your bank account on the Asian PGA tour. Is there anything the LPGA will teach you about the game? Yeah Michelle maybe how to hit your sand wedge into a 110 yard par three. Forget about playing the putt putt courses with half the clubs in your bag, go where you are welcomed, get paid well and be challenged. Be the first girl/woman to hold an Asian PGA card.

After two or three years take-on the LPGA tour and show them the difference up-close and personal. Learn how to putt well in Asia Michelle and you can putt anywhere.

Since you guys are so big on stats... it appears that of the 8 tournaments in 2005 that both Wie and Creamer participated, the ended up beating each other 4 times each... The thing is here... Creamer won the Evian Masters while Wie was a distant 2nd... Hey... I'm just playin by your rules... have a nice day :-)

2005 SBS Open

Creamer tied for 40th place, Wie tied for 2nd place.

2005 Safeway International

Creamer tied for 26th place, Wie tied for 12th place.

2005 Kraft Nabisco Championship

Creamer tied for 19th place, Wie tied for 14th place.

2005 McDonald's LPGA Championship (LPGA MAJOR)

Creamer tied for 3rd place, Wie alone in second place.

2005 US Women's Open (LPGA MAJOR)

Creamer tied for 19th place, Wie tied for 23rd place.

2005 Evian Ladies Masters

Creamer alone in 1st place, Wie tied for 2nd place.

2005 Weetabix Women's British Open (LPGA MAJOR)

Creamer tied for 15th place, Wie tied for 3rd place.

2005 Samsung World Championship

Creamer alone in 2nd place, Wie finished alone in 4th place, but later disqualified.

So JR where did you get your "stats" from? I have it five for Michelle and three for Paula.

Jim is way off-base comparing the Pressel situation to the Wie situation. Pressel did not just turn pro like Wie did - she also earned her LPGA Tour Card through Q-school. She was going to use the maximum number of sponsor exemptions to play on Tour until her 18th birthday, when she could play as much as she wanted. She never asked for extra exemptions. Wie has not yet petitioned the LPGA for any exclusions under the age rule, just for extra exemptions. The two situations are entirely different.

I also do not believe "Bivens caters to the anti-Wie sentiment on the LPGA" as Jim stated. She is making a business decision. That decision, based on the effect on the entire Tour, is not to increase the amount of exemptions for anyone. Just because it goes against his desires does not mean anything nefarious is happening.

Now, having said that, I believe that based upon Wie's results in 2006, Bivens will offer to make an age-rule waver for Wie in 2007. But there will have to be some sort of agreement on tournaments outside the LPGA Tour. And that's a whole other discussion.

Shanks,
I agree with nearly everything you said there. Wie isn't really entitled to the extra exemption.

I do think they should change the criteria but I don't think it would have been prudent just to change it this week for Wie.

Bivens has to look at protecting the LPGA Tour. If a player wants to play more than the allowable number of exemptions, they have to join the Tour. What she and the Tour does not want is a great player to cherry-pick as much as they want. They want that player to commit to the Tour, thereby enriching them all.

However, I would bet that Bivens will oversee a change in the rule regarding outside play to get it similar to what the PGA Tour has. Otherwise she may risk losing Wie in all but those 6-7 events every year for the rest of her career - a very high-stakes gamble. World players like Ernie Els, Retief Goosen, etc only have to play 15 times on the PGA Tour to fulfill membership requirements, then they are free to play wherever else they want. That rule was once stricter than it is now so there is precendence for that type of change.

Hey JR, at the SBS Michelle was 2nd and Creamer was a distant 40th.

Didn't we discuss this before? I still don't think the LPGA will make a big change in the required number of events. As Bivens said:

-------

“If she chooses to be a member of the (LPGA) Tour, there are some guidelines, Sponsors and partners put up money to run events and put purses up and they want top money winners to show up.

“If somebody wants to just dip in and out and go play in a competing event, that really hurts the association. We would be better off with the course that Michelle has chosen, and I don't think you are going to hear any of us saying if what Michelle wants to do is compete against the men, and occasionally play on the LPGA, all of those options are open. That's perfectly fine.”

-----

It's an interesting dilemma for both Wie and Bivens. It seems to me that in a couple of years Wie has to decide to either focus on playing against men or playing against women. If she chooses to play against women, she would join the LPGA and Bivens would want her to play as many LPGA events as possible. If she focuses on playing men, Wie won't join the LPGA and only play the occasional event on exemption.

It's not clear which of the two Bivens would prefer.

Jim Coulthards suggestion of picking the better play based on head to heads is the fairest, but not entirely the fairest system.

For the better year, obviously that is going to go to either Creamer or Pressel unless they have a dreadful time, because they play so many more events.

If Creamer wins 3 or 4 titles, it would take an almighty effort from Wie to beat that in her limited tournaments.

So the head to head is a fairer system, but I don't think it is completely fair until all girls play a full season.

By the way, Shanks suggested that the lpga will probably change their rules to allow Wie join, but play more non lpga events.
If this happens and she were to play about 15 events, and then other mens events, I would class this 15 events as a full season and it should be used for comparison purposes.

Does Norman agree with this, since he mentions the total number of events played so often as a factor?

Johnny N,

In regard to Creamer and Wie, the reason why mentioned events played was because Creamer was only averaging 1 win in ever 12.5 events, so given that Wie only played in 8 events, it wasn't really fair to evaluate them on a wins only basis.

If Wie were to play 15 events as you suggested, then there wouldn't be any excuses for no wins in my opinion, because she could get a decent run of events going.

So in short, yes I agree, that would be an appropriate measure.

However if Creamer won 4 events in 25 starts and Wie won 3 in 15 starts, I think there could be plenty of more arguments, because I would pick Wie in that case.

Paul W,

Given the scenario of Wie having to choose between
- full time lpg, and only 2 mens events
- or 8 lpga and many ment tournaments.

I think Wie would choose the 2nd option. This would give her plenty of appearance money and she would still get to play the lpga majors and 4 other top events. She would also gets lots of exemption offers from the pga, a maximum of 8, and plenty on other tours.

If that were to happen, that would be a very bad deal for the lpga, and that is why I agree with Shanks, that they would want her to play more events and would so change the rules.

If they offered her to become an lpga member, play at least 15 events, and then do what she wants after that, I think she would accept.
This would be financially very beneficial to the lpga, and good for Wie as regards her overall career.

That is a win win situation and one that is very likely to happen.
The alternative is for the lpga to lose out on crowds, publicity and extra sponsors interest.

Also, this rule would be open to all lpga members, but who else would want to play more non lpga events? My guess is very few.

Norman, you know better than I, but if Wie really wants to have any chance of success against men, shouldn't she play as many men's events as possible and try to get in to a tour. Would it make sense for her to play, say, 15 LPGA events and 10 or so men's? It seems to me, she really needs to focus on a goal, either achieving some level of success in men's events, or going after Annika's record in the LPGA. If she continues to divide her time 50-50, I think the public will loose interest.

Where does it state that a non-PGA golfer can receive up to eight sponsors' exemptions in a year? My source says the maximum is seven. Ryan Moore and Woods before him got seven exemptions to try to secure their PGA tour cards.

Everyone is assuming that Michelle wants to play full-time on the LPGA tour after graduating from high school. She may surprise everyone and register full-time at Stanford and still play only 12 to 15 cherry picked events a year. Michelle has demonstrated she marches to a different drummer and will continue to do so.

The teenagers who signed up for the LPGA tour, have not expressed any desire to attend college, their desire was to only play golf after high school, mostly for the money. This is not a factor for Michelle who can scrape by as a starving college student on her current bank account. Nike and Sony both signed up to her appearing in only 12 events a year.

You have to ask yourself what image is the best for Michelle, Nike and Sony. The full-time tour player or the full-time student and part-time tour player. This is a situation marketing executives can promote either way and I would choose the first situation. Why? It is as simple as worldwide name recognition and crossover appeal.

Paula, Natalie, Ai and Morgan have name recognition to those familiar with the game of golf. Michelle transcends the game by having her name recognized around the world beyond the game itself.

If Morgan had just talked about herself at the press conference it would have gotten a little press in the local papers around Florida and Hawaii or a comment from the golf periodicals. When she brought up Michelle in the conversation it then and only then became a worldwide news event.

I think we can safely say people around the world don't give a Rat's Ass what Morgan says or does, but they follow intently what Michelle says, does or what is said about her. She is the “Pot of gold” at the end of a Hawaiian Rainbow for any marketing executive. That is why her parents did not sign her up with IMG and follow the party line.

My guess is that Wie does not go the full-time college route. Even if she tries it, it will hinder her true aspiration, which is playing golf against the best in the world. Tiger found out the same thing and he was playing big-time college golf. Wasn't enough for him.

John Z, yes you are right, it is a maximum of 7, not 8 sponsors exemptions per year.

Paul W,
the way I think Wie will play it is that she will do her very best to become a pga tour player.
Even the most optimistic of us don't believe that she is ready for that yet. I understand completely what you mean about her concentrating on one or the other but I don't think that is feasible.

Here is how I think her career will go:
- at 16 & 17 years, I think she will take up the 8 lpga exemptions and play a couple of pga events, and a couple of foreign events. Also I expect her to attempt to qualify for the mens US Open and possibly the British Open. I do not expect her to petition for early membership of the lpga.

- at 18, if she becomes a full time golfer, she will have a decision to make:
Paul, I think this is where you are suggesting that she should either go for mens or womens.

Firstly in my opinion, if she were to try to go the mens route as you suggest, she would be under alot of pressure unless she did very well.
If she were missing lots of pga cuts, eg missing 3 cuts in every 4 events, and then going to foreign events and making some cuts, but not finishing that high, where would that leave her?

That is why I think she should maintain a good percentage of her focus on the womens game. If she is winning some womens events, it takes some of the heat off her as regards the mens tournaments.

I also think there is a good will factor. I think that if she excepts every invitation as a youngster she will use up alot of good will towards her. I think she should wait until she is a better player and at a higher level, and then it will be obvious to everyone that she deserves these exemptions.

I fully expect her to take up the maximum 7 pga exemptions in a few years time and try to gain her tour card that year.

I guess it all depends on just how good she becomes.
I certainly understand exactly what you mean about her not sticking to mainly womens events.

Many people have suggested that she should beat the women before she takes on the men. It is my opinion that this would be a terrible decision, because she would not have learned many of the skills she has, because she simply wouldn't need them on an lpga setup. That is why she needs to be playing mens events. If she were to play womens only and then join the mens tour, she would be at a massive disadvantage.

That's why I sympatise with your view of concentrating on mens events, but I think the good will factor outweighs that, because exemptions won't always be so easy to get unless she improves her level by quite some way.

I think one thing we can agree on is that nobody gives a **** what One-Putt says. crying like a baby whenever Michelle is slighted in any way, yet attacking a 17 year-old girl whenever he gets the chance. Your a real class act.

Well, Bubbles may very well go to college, given the fact that she seems to be one who walks the cart path less traveled. I can see it now; she'll major in . . . marketing?

Norman, thanks for the thoughtful response. I guess I had assumed she would take one of the more traditional routes to the PGA, like Q school or another tour. It's certainly complicated.

I still think Bivens is unlikely to make a big change to the minimum number of events, though she may relax the 2 competing events limit which is silly. I especially don't think she'd want to make the change if it was primarily to make the LPGA a staging area/safe harbor for Wie.

My guess is her solution for Wie is to up the number of sponsors exemptions in a year or two. I seem to remember one of the LPGA staff being asked whether they would up the number so that Wie could play the SBS Open and the LPGA person said something like "No, not this year".

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

Shanks, I don't think she could play golf for Stanford anyway since she is a professional. I think the plan was to allow her to practice with the men's team.

Under Par, I don't think Stanford has an undergraduate management program. Maybe she could major in Applied Physics, isn't that another name for golf?

Paul,
You certainly have a knowledge of Stanford. It is one of the big questions in the Wie saga, because she has stated her intention to go there. Personally I think it would damage her golfing career. She has continuously gone on the path of competing at the very highest level that she can. I think going to college would just delay her progress.

On the q-school thing, yes there are various ways to get a pga tour card, but I do also expect her to go to q-school also. I would expect her to try every route available.

Let Wie and Pressel have their little childish arguments. Creamer will take care of both of them.

By the way, Pressel has a very big chest. And some people say she has nothing going for her!!!!

Go Creamer.

This dissection of Wie's every move by the Wie Warriors, aka, Wie Maniacs, is pretty amusing. It's an endless source of mirth.

It's also cackle-worthy to see that the Wie Warriors actually believe Michelle ever intends to take a traditional route in golf. It would be counter-productive, in fact, for Mastermind B.J. Wie's real gambit, were Michelle to do so.

I said some weeks ago that I expect Michelle Wie will never play full-time, year-after-year, on the LPGA.

I have seen nothing that contradicts this assessment, which is a pure guess on my part.

I believe Michelle will spend more days in class at Stanford than on the LPGA during the concurrent years she is at the university.

She will likely attempt to earn an MBA Graduate degree from Stanford. That will give Michelle the cachet and the skills needed to start her own company, which will be multimedia and multi-venue in nature.

That, BTW, is why she hired the agent she did. This agent is non-traditional for golf. The agency, instead, has access to Hollywood, which someday will be approached to produce, create, and distribute content related to "The Michelle Wie Story".

About now, some of the saps will try to deflect us from the real issue by saying I'm jealous. I'm absolutely not. I've said multiple times that I believe everyone should become more wealthy. Even Bill Gates. Even Michelle Wie. Even Paula Creamer. Even Tiger Woods. You get the idea.

That's the American Way, after all.

The Marketing of Michelle is the bottom line.

Wie will be wealthy enough and have enough ventures going (Golf course design, fashion lines, movies, TV shows, Golf equipment sales, music titles, etc., that the drudge work of full-time touring on the LPGA would be secondary. It would be an impediment.

So long as Michelle is merely ATTEMPTING to achieve UNIQUE accomplishments, that will be a story line that Hollywood will love. All she has to do is play on Sunday at a PGA event, or qualify for the Masters or Men's British Open, etc., and the story will really take off. The LPGA is merely a stepping stone for Michelle.

So silly folks like Norman or Coulthard or the Johns, or whomever, can attempt to extrapolate, or assign proportional scores to finishing 5th or 10th, or T3, or driving distance, GIR, or whatever they want, as a pale substitute for actually WINNING A TOURNAMENT.

They waste their time with such intellectual self-gratification.

I suspect it will never come down to being able to equate stats in any comprehensive or meaningful way.

Michelle has bigger fish to fry, in the world according to B.J. Wie. B.J. believes it is beneath Michelle to merely be a cog in the LPGA wheel.

BTW, I'm surprised that nobody here compared Paula Creamer's rookie season to Annika Sorenstam's. Such a comparison appeared on NBC during that last tournament of 2005.

Paula handily bested Annika in the comparison of the two stars' respective rookie seasons, according to NBC.

Unlike the Pretzel Logic served up by the Wie Warriors, that comparison is rational. Apples to apples, oranges to oranges.

-George

Bivens talked as if Michelle Wie chose not to pursue LPGA membership at a time when she was ineligible because of age. Per haps it is better that she follow her own course--or something like that.

I read that PGA Q-School will not even allow players in Q-School unless they will at least turn 18 the following year. At the time when she could have signed up for Q-School the LPGA position on Morgan Pressel made it clear that a 17 year old high school student would not be allowed to be a member, Q-School or not.

Now they change the rules for Pressel and pretend like Wie is not a member only because she chose not to be one--when they clearly sent out the message that an underage high school girl couldnot be a member.

Morgan Pressel earned her right to be an LPGA member in Q-School--but only after she turned 18. The LPGA changed the rules for her after Q-School was over. And please SHANKS, are you trying to say Michelle Wie is not good enough to make it through LPGA Q-School. I will wager this time that she beats every single Q-School graduate at the Fields Open. Do I have any takers?

"Under Par, I don't think Stanford has an undergraduate management program. Maybe she could major in Applied Physics, isn't that another name for golf?"

Well, she could also major in literature, focusing especially on mythology.

Shanks said: "However, there is no doubt that the crowds will be bigger for the Fields because of Wie. It would be the same sort of thing for Miyazato in Japan - local pride. That's not to say Wie wouldn't draw the biggest crowds anywhere, but in Hawaii it will be inordinately so."

***********************************

Shanks........Do not underestimate the drawing power of Ai Miyazato in Hawaii. She has already had thousands of her supporters travel to Australia to watch her play. The population of Hawaii is 17 percent Japanese and it is a huge Japanese tourist destination, so I would expect her to have a very big gallery, especially since the SBS is her LPGA tour debut. Her press corps alone will be larger than most of the other galleries.

George said:"This dissection of Wie's every move by the Wie Warriors, aka, Wie Maniacs, is pretty amusing. It's an endless source of mirth."

I guess this is your opinion and I think you have a right to have this kind of opinion. But, in my opinion, I don't understand why it's amusing that the Wie Warriors dissect Wie's every move. I think they have all the rights to do that.

Welcome back Ronnie, we truly missed Paula's biggest athletic supporter. Your wit and intellect are legendary at TravelGolf. To tell you the truth Ronnie, I haven't read where Michelle has responded to anything Morgan has said at any time. Why would she anyway? So I suppose all the verbal missiles are inbound from the other camp. Morgan is fighting her own Demons and Windmills as she tries to find herself.

Shanks I wouldn't have made the statement about Stanford before I found out Nike and Sony signed a five year deal with Michelle where she would only be required to play in 12 events a year.

She is scheduled to graduate from high school in 2007 with three more years left on her Nike/Sony contracts. 12 events will not meet the requirement for any of the tour minimums. This leads me to believe Stanford is still on her mind and exemptions are the rule.

Nike and Sony could have insisted at negotiation she join a tour after she graduates from high school and play a full LPGA schedule.

So ask yourself why the suits would limit their options unless it was a Wie negotiating point that Michelle could attend college.

College students buy sports gear, phones, computers and MP3 players too. I would say far more than the golf equipment any of them purchase. If I were a Nike or Sony suit I would not only want Michelle attend college, I would insist on her attendance and market it to the hilt.

Hey it all adds up to me. Maybe I'm wrong.

One Putt, you are wrong.
Why would Michelle want to bother going to college. People go to college to get a better job to get more money.

She's not going to gain financially by going to college. When she finishes school, she should just play golf full time and not be messing around.

All I am saying is that right now Wie might have the best of intentions to go to & graduate from Stanford, but that could easily change. Tiger intended to do the same. What I am saying is the lure of playing pro golf full-time to maximize her potential will most likely keep her from staying with that education plan.

Jim, you're reading things into what I said. I just stated the fact that Wie did not go through Q-school and Pressel did. Getting a little shell-shocked? The exception for the age-rule granted to Pressel didn't change her schedule at all. she was going to use exemptions until her 18th birthday anyway. The only difference is that the money she earns in those early tournaments now will count towards year end awards like ROY.

Foot-Wedge, I agree that Miyazato will draw huge crowds (she's like a rock star in Japan) but not as big as Wie in her home state of Hawaii. Could you imagine if those 2 were paired together?

Ronnie, there are other reasons to go to college than getting a specific job: general education, making contacts, networking, status, etc. Remember that Wie's father is a college professor and from a culture that values education. I'm sure there is a strong desire in her bones to get a degree. I think a lot depends on whether she can win any tournaments (or do better at men's tournaments) on her current schedule. I don't think her sponsors will be happy to keep supporting her at the current level if she doesn't.

I hope all the attention Miyazato gets will finally wake Pressel up and make her understand that Ai-chan is her real competition this year. Odds are high that one of them will be ROY. I'd put my money on Miyazato since she clearly knows how to win in non match-play. She also drives it farther and is much more level headed. Pressel is great at match play but I don't know how well that translates to non-match play.

Comment from: Shanks

"Foot-Wedge, I agree that Miyazato will draw huge crowds (she's like a rock star in Japan) but not as big as Wie in her home state of Hawaii. Could you imagine if those 2 were paired together?"

The entire TV broadcast would be on them and the island of Oahu will drop on the south side when the population shifts to watch. I can't imagine what the traffic and parking issues will be at the Fields.

I have to admit Pressel is not bad in stroke play also Paul. She is a solid player who consistently finishes high in the order in LPGA events.

Pretty well I think Paul, top 25 in all 7 of her LPGA events last year, including 2 top tens and her 2nd at the US Open. Very good results in stroke play, good enough to justify all the smack she's been talking, I'm not sure, but very good just the same. She won just about every Junior and Amateur tournament you could, both stroke and match play, so I don't think winning on the LPGA will be a problem for her. How much is anybody's guess. I hate to admit this, but I kind of like her outspoken nature, it's a nice change up from all the pc answers you get from all the other athletes/robots out there. She will have to produce, however and, against the likes of Ai, Michelle, Paula, Annika and the rest, talk is cheap.

No doubt Pressel is good. She also had a good scoring average, near Creamers as I recall.

As far as her outspoken nature, I'd rather see her talk with her clubs, but that's just me. Miyazato is kind of the other polar extreme. I just read a quote from her where they asked what her goal is for the LPGA season, and she said her goal is to keep her card. Pressel, Wie, and Creamer could all learn a lesson from her in expectation setting.

I just wonder how well the more senior players on the LPGA tour will embrace the teens surrounding them now.

Comment from: Paul W [Visitor]

"I just read a quote from her where they asked what her goal is for the LPGA season, and she said her goal is to keep her card. Pressel, Wie, and Creamer could all learn a lesson from her in expectation setting."

I don't think holding her card could be one of Michelle's goals at this point. That was a classic Japanese understatement from Ai that was instilled in her at birth. The one thing you would never expect from Paula or Morgan is understatement.

Since Pressel arrived in Hawaii, I guess she doesn't want to ruffle too many feathers. She has said:

"Anytime I say anything [about Wie], it's twisted into something horrible," Pressel said. "That's ridiculous. Michelle and I get along fine. There's nothing there."

Ronnie is right about the reason why people go to college. Ninety-nine percent of the population attends so that they'll be able to get a better job and make more money, and we all know that. Colleges have become left-wing propaganda mills nowadays; why else would people go?

Even though I agree with Ronnie and Under Par in regards to (MOST) people going to college to get a better job and make more money (I could be wrong), I don’t think I can tell for sure why a certain individual (eg, Wie) will go to college. I can at least tell for sure it is not for money she will go to college but it doesn’t mean that she should not go to college. She can have many other reasons to go to college.

SHANKS

What gives you the idea that the Pressel ruling will have no effect on her schedule. Originally she was limited to a maximum of 6 LPGA exemptions as a 17 year old(her 7th event last year, the US Open was not an LPGA exemption). Now she is eligible to compete in 11 events. Since she is 2 for the first 2, I think it is very unlikely she will limit herself to 6. Until the Pressel decision, no exception had been made for any non-high school graduate under 18. The logic behind this presumeably was to limit the extent to which LPGA play might interfere with the high school education of a girl under 18.

It is not just a matter of giving official credit to MP's results--it is also a matter of permitting her to compete in as many as 5 extra tournaments.

Just for the sake of argument, what does the LPGA do if Michelle wins a couple of events this year? As an LPGA member she would receive a 3 or 5 year LPGA exemption for her efforts. Since she is not a member of the tour this method of qualifying would not be available to her and she would only be exempted for two years at the event/s she won.

This is the situation that bring lawsuits into play. That is why they rolled over for Morgan and if Michelle wins they will be obligated to roll over for her. But only if she wins.

Jim has a good point there - Pressel will be able to play in a few extra events, if she chooses. I think it unlikely that she would play all of them. Makes sense logistically to play both in Hawaii.

I agree with One-Putt. If Wie wins, the LPGA will offer to make some sort of an age-rule exception. But there will still be that rule about outside play to deal with. Wie might refuse LPGA membership if that is not changed.

More signs that Bivens will be slow to change the rules from http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060216/SPORTS0901/602160360/1055/SPORTS

----------------

They will start rocking at the two Hawai'i events that will accrue points toward qualifying for professional golf's first playoff system — the ADT Championship — that will culminate the LPGA season.

It is part of the entertainment package as the LPGA launches a Survivor Golf Show with the eventual winner of a 32-player field collecting $1 million, the largest purse in the history of women's golf.

Unfortunately for Hawai'i's teen prodigy, Michelle Wie, it is for LPGA members only no matter if she wins a major, which is one way to automatically qualify for the ADT Championship.

Wie's decision to pass up the SBS Open and play only in next week's Fields Open in Hawai'i didn't surprise Bivens.

"Not at all," said Bivens when asked if it is disappointing that Wie didn't enter both Hawai'i events. "We all knew going into the season that Michelle had only six exemptions."

And there is no consideration to increasing that number, Bivens added.

"It would be unfair to the other women on the tour and the sponsors," she said.

As for Sorenstam not starting her season here, Bivens said she also wasn't surprised, pointing out that the LPGA's player of the year has limited her schedule to 20 events.

--------------------

First of all, Wie won't be eligible for the ADT, even if she wins a major. The LPGA is clearly putting rules over a short term ratings increase.

Second, her wierd reason for not upping the sponsor's exemptions. How would it be unfair to the sponsors to give them more flexibility?

Third the fact than Annika is already playing the minimum number of events and may cut back further if allowed.

If Annika only plays 20 events, and she isn't interested in playing against men, what else does she do?

Those 20 are just the official LPGA events she plays. She also plays a few events on the Euro and Asian Ladies Tours, as well as unoffical events.

Annika has been around long enough to figure out how much she can play and still be "fresh" enough to perform the way she expects to perform.

Not sure what Annika does, I think she's more interested in winning as many majors as she can, than in overall wins. She does several non-LPGA events such as her tournament in Sweeden, and exhibition events.

Any predictions on the SBS Open? I'm predicting the winner will be one of the slightly older players like Ochoa or Kerr. Kerr did well last year there, and probably has a chip on her shoulder for the low level of attention she gets and the fact that Creamer picked Gulbis to go to the Women's World Cup last month and didn't do that well.

The weather Gods of Hawaii have delayed the SBS Open start. Bivens could have avoided this delay by inviting Michelle to play in an event she finished second in last year. When will they learn not to mess with a child of Pele. LOL

"Comment from: Johnny N. [Visitor]
If Annika only plays 20 events, and she isn't interested in playing against men, what else does she do?"

Annika played in 20 LPGA events last season and won 10 of them.

Tiger played in 20 PGA events last season and won 6 of them.

They both have the best productivity on their respective tours.

Ai is full of you know what, she signs her autograph Ai 54, as in she truly believes that she can shoot a 54 in tournament play. She is extremely confident, so as far as her saying she just wants to keep her card, that's just plain nonsense.

One-Putt [Visitor]
Comment from: Paul W [Visitor]

*****

"I just read a quote from her where they asked what her goal is for the LPGA season, and she said her goal is to keep her card. Pressel, Wie, and Creamer could all learn a lesson from her in expectation setting."

I don't think holding her card could be one of Michelle's goals at this point. That was a classic Japanese understatement from Ai that was instilled in her at birth. The one thing you would never expect from Paula or Morgan is understatement.

*****
Regarding Paula, she's not exactly yapping away like Ali in his heyday.

Other than the Joe Namath prediction -- which was actually pretty mild, despite the typical media attempts to blow it out of proportion -- where has Creamer been running her mouth a lot?

And Creamer did win four times in 2005, including two on the LPGA, and as a rookie was the sparkplug, the catalyst, of the Solheim Cup victory that she led.

And about the Solheim Cup, the Americans did in fact win, and Paula backed it all up with her clubs.

No question, holding a card is not one of Michelle Wie's goals.

Wie's only goal -- as concocted and orchestrated by B.J. Wie & Co. -- is The Marketing of The Michelle Wie Story.

-George

Jason, the goal of hitting a 54 came out of the Swedish golf program. It's just a goal to strive for.
Annika has the same goal.

George, didn't Creamer recently say "I want to be someone who changes women's golf"

Don't you get tired of saying the same thing about Wie over and over and over and over?

Comment from: george [Visitor]

"No question, holding a card is not one of Michelle Wie's goals.

Wie's only goal -- as concocted and orchestrated by B.J. Wie & Co. -- is The Marketing of The Michelle Wie Story."

When will it be out on DVD George? Norman and I will reserve a copy at Amazon.

BTW that was "sarcasm", Michelle is not eligible to hold an LPGA card even though she deserves one based on her 2005 performance. But that is a matter for the lawyers to work out.

George said:
No question, holding a card is not one of Michelle Wie's goals.

Wie's only goal -- as concocted and orchestrated by B.J. Wie & Co. -- is The Marketing of The Michelle Wie Story.
--------------------------

She isn't actually allowed to hold a card yet, so why would it be her goal. Also she spends most of her time at school.
Whats the story anyway. Are you trying to question her ability to hold a card? Now that would be really far fetched.

Comment from: george [Visitor]

And Creamer did win four times in 2005, including two on the LPGA, and as a rookie was the sparkplug, the catalyst, of the Solheim Cup victory that she led.
****

Well said George.
Don't forget to mention the distance she has added on the off season. That will her her build even more.

"Comment from: Ronnie [Visitor]
Comment from: george [Visitor]

And Creamer did win four times in 2005, including two on the LPGA, and as a rookie was the sparkplug, the catalyst, of the Solheim Cup victory that she led.
****

Well said George.
Don't forget to mention the distance she has added on the off season. That will her her build even more."

Unfortunately Paula has not put that "distance added" to use at the SBS Open where she is in a tie with several others in 67th place. I hope she rebounds to at least equal her 40th place finish last year. I think Paula is a slow starter, what do you think Ronnie?

In all the debate about the youngsters, Shanks tried to introduce Karie Webb to the debate which helped a bit with the balance.

I think someone else who should have been mentioned more is Grace Park.
She did very well in 2004, was 2nd on the money list, 2nd putting average, 2nd scoring average, 4th in driving average and had a very good season. It was only injury that stopped her last season, and maybe she could turn out to be very much the number 2 player this season.

I hope she keeps playing well and wins this tournament.

One - Putt

** Unfortunately Paula has not put that "distance added" to use at the SBS Open where she is in a tie with several others in 67th place. I hope she rebounds to at least equal her 40th place finish last year. I think Paula is a slow starter, what do you think Ronnie? **

As long as you're doing a play-by-play of 2006 LPGA events, One-Putt, it looks as if Paula's worked her way up to 15th place at -3, 5 back.

But what must really be killing you Wie Maniacs, Creamer Haters and Pressel Haters (which are redundant phrases by definition) is where Pressel is, -6, T4, and two back of the leader (as of 1:50 p.m. Pacific time)

Maybe your play-by-play microphone only works when Creamer is doing poorly. And it will probably suffer a complete meltdown if Pressel or Creamer manage to actually win this thing!

-George

Comment from: george

** Wie's only goal -- as concocted and orchestrated by B.J. Wie & Co. -- is The Marketing of The Michelle Wie Story." **

Comment from One-Putt

* When will it be out on DVD George? Norman and I will reserve a copy at Amazon. *

One Putt, you, Norman and Coulthard are such such suck-ups to Michelle Wie that I figged one or all of you were producing the DVD.

* BTW that was "sarcasm" *

so you're starting to finally learn some of the finer points of humor?

[...]

Catch a clue, because here's the bottom line:

All tactics by B.J. Wie and his professional progeny are subservient to the main goal: "The Marketing of Michelle Wie."

And that goes back to my main point.

For the near and perhaps mid-term future, if Michelle became a full-time LPGA player, that would contravene the primary goals of B.J. and Michelle Wie, as noted above.

-George

Guess what folks? You can now add the Korean press to the chorus line of Michelle Wie Naysayers.


http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/sports/200602/kt2006020516555711640.htm

George what gives you the right to decide what is right or wrong for Michelle Wie? How she lives her life is up to Michelle and her parents to choose.

Do you know them personally or have you formed your opinion from what you read and gathered from your own personal prejudices?

Don’t believe everything you have read George, from what I have seen; Michelle is a very nice young lady who well adjusted to her circumstances whatever they may be. To deny she has a talent for playing the game of golf is to deny your own eyes.

Some kids play baseball, others basketball, softball or soccer, Michelle just happens to play golf and play it well. I don’t think I was a bad parent for spending my free time taking my daughter to gymnastics practices or meets. In fact, my son started taking Tae Kwon Do when he was four years old and after achieving Black Belts or Red Sashes in Tae Kwon Do, Tang Soo Do, Akido and Kung-Fu, he now has three studios (Dojos) of his own and on the side does some fight-scene choreography for Hollywood Directors.

It was a struggle paying for classes and attending tournaments/events all over the Nation, but I supported what they wanted to do, by encouraging them when they succeeded and consoling them when they didn’t. That is what a Dad does best.

I don’t think Michelle’s Dad is really very different from the rest of us who want their children to succeed in whatever they choose to do. Some kids just achieve higher than others and have more self-determination, self-discipline and self-assuredness. This is not a bad thing George.

HC2, that Korean writer is full of it. He's just mimicking what Wie apologists are saying. She doesn't need those kind of people trying to tell her what she should be doing or feeling. If Wie's intention is to someday contend in the PGA, then she has to play as much PGA tournament she can handle. She's going to gain a lot golf course management skills by observing the men. Remember, Tiger needed 8 tries to make his first cut in the PGA. Let's give Michelle the same chances as Tiger. Once she figures everything out, pieces will begin falling into place for her.

The Korean writer was most certainly NOT a Michelle Wie Naysayer. The writer seemed genuinely concerned about Michelle Wie's welfare--even though I believe his concern was not necessary. She seemed to have her head together after her first round 79 at the SONY. I did not notice any Chris Baldwin like comments about no-Win Wie or the like.

I call her "Bubbles" myself. Actually, the only thing that struck me about the article was the poor use of the English language. You'd think that if they were going to have a piece written in English, they would be able to find someone who possesses a good command of it.

Guys,(Norman, Jim, etc)let's play 'Mr. fix it.'

I would like to see if any of you wants to analyze Michelle Wie's putting, and what you think she is doing/not doing right.

These are my two tips, based on what has helped my putting; and which I think may help her:
1. Since she is tall, the ability to secure the putter becomes more challenging. Gravity becomes an issue as the putter face needs to be square from a higher distance due to her long legs. One thing I have noticed is that she 'dangles' the putter which leads the putter face to stray off from being square. If you look at good putters, their grip is'soft', but also very secure. One solution that worked wonders for me is to grip the putter lower down the grip; almost to the edge of the shaft. I think this may help her; and other players as well since the face of the putter will have better chance of staying square at impact.
2. She needs to improve her follow through after impact. This tip is one that Greg Norman talked about. Greg said to make the putter face point at the target line a good two feet after impact. I think this would help Michelle lag her putts better as well as develop feel since this would get rid of her tendency to jab at her putts.

So, any Ben Crenshaws out there?

After the first two days at the SBS, both Morgan and Paula have done commendable jobs of overcoming opening day bogie-fests with excellent performances on the second day.

Morgan was especially impressive as it seems she saw her enthusiasm to make birdies was killing her with bogies and conciously reined herself in the second round netting a better score. Since conditions were much better and others were going low around her, she showed good maturity in playing the game she was ready to play that day and was rewarded with a T7 four strokes off the lead.

Under Par, One-Putt just explained his fondness for BJ Wie and all things Michelle. He's a "stage father", taking his kids to gymnastics meets and Oriental martial arts. Every parent I ever knew who was involved in these "sports" was a raving fanatic. I don't know a thing about One-Putt's alphabet soup of Oriental terms, but I once knew a guy named "Wun Hung Lo." He was a ruptured Chinese cowboy.

Jim, I think that writer was more concerned about Michelle embarrassing herself. He was being subtle, but that's the Korean mentality for you. Michelle is a teenager with big dreams, she was also brought up American.

"Comment from: John Z [Visitor] · http://John Z
Under Par, One-Putt just explained his fondness for BJ Wie and all things Michelle. He's a "stage father", taking his kids to gymnastics meets and Oriental martial arts. Every parent I ever knew who was involved in these "sports" was a raving fanatic. I don't know a thing about One-Putt's alphabet soup of Oriental terms, but I once knew a guy named "Wun Hung Lo." He was a ruptured Chinese cowboy."

That was almost funny and proves my point how little you or anyone else knows about Mr. Wie or me.

"Comment from: John Neal [Visitor]
After the first two days at the SBS, both Morgan and Paula have done commendable jobs of overcoming opening day bogie-fests with excellent performances on the second day."

Morgan has been hanging in since the first round and did a great job getting into contention during the second round. She will have to go real low to pass up the four Koreans in front of her on the leaderboard. I hope she can pull it off too.

Personally, I hope Morgan doesn't plan to overcome a 4 stroke lead. Her best plan, I think, is to try to drop her score one or two strokes and let the leaders bogie their way back to her.

With the very notable exception of Becky Iverson, they are mostly young and quite susceptible to trying to play over their heads on the final day. Call me crazy, but I think Iverson may be the one who gives her the most trouble. Or possibly Creamer catching fire and closing from the rear.

BTW, the counterweight to my previous post is: "Hey! Do you see the four young Koreans sitting at the top of the leaderboard!"

Granted they got there with super rounds when the course was playing its easiest. But if any one of them keeps her head in probably more difficult circumstances today they will be darn hard to beat.

No, One-putt, I think there's a very good chance that John Z characterized you perfectly. I used to work as a tennis pro, so I have a lot of experience with parents who live vicariously through their kids.

** Comment from: One-Putt [Visitor]
George what gives you the right to decide what is right or wrong for Michelle Wie? **

One-Putt, tell me you're not so dumb as to believe that I'm trying to decide what's right or wrong for Michelle. You merely state the obvious -- perhaps your strong suite -- when you note that it's up to her parents to guide her.

Surely you have to realize that I'm simply making an observation about what B.J. Wie is up to. You can't possibly be so thick as to believe that I'm only commenting about this reality: The primary goal of B.J. Wie in this case is "The Marketing of Michelle Wie."

That's why I said earlier that going to Stanford would fit The Plan because that would provide Michelle with access to business and marketing classes that someday will let her be CEO of her empire.

So you Wie Warriors who hope to see Michelle playing full time on the LPGA may well wait donsiderably longer than you think.

Or pray, more like it, because your devotion to Michelle is that of a religious fanatic in nature and intensity.

-George



How she lives her life is up to Michelle and her parents to choose. **







Do you know them personally or have you formed your opinion from what you read and gathered from your own personal prejudices?

Don’t believe everything you have read George, from what I have seen; Michelle is a very nice young lady who well adjusted to her circumstances whatever they may be. To deny she has a talent for playing the game of golf is to deny your own eyes.

Some kids play baseball, others basketball, softball or soccer, Michelle just happens to play golf and play it well. I don’t think I was a bad parent for spending my free time taking my daughter to gymnastics practices or meets. In fact, my son started taking Tae Kwon Do when he was four years old and after achieving Black Belts or Red Sashes in Tae Kwon Do, Tang Soo Do, Akido and Kung-Fu, he now has three studios (Dojos) of his own and on the side does some fight-scene choreography for Hollywood Directors.

It was a struggle paying for classes and attending tournaments/events all over the Nation, but I supported what they wanted to do, by encouraging them when they succeeded and consoling them when they didn’t. That is what a Dad does best.

I don’t think Michelle’s Dad is really very different from the rest of us who want their children to succeed in whatever they choose to do. Some kids just achieve higher than others and have more self-determination, self-discipline and self-assuredness. This is not a bad thing George.

"Comment from: Under Par [Visitor]
No, One-putt, I think there's a very good chance that John Z characterized you perfectly. I used to work as a tennis pro, so I have a lot of experience with parents who live vicariously through their kids."

Like I said, you and Mr. Z have no idea who I am or what I have done in life concerning the raising of my children. You both took what I wrote and shaped it into what you thought it should say and mean. If your life experiences on the tennis court are the basis for your analysis of me, you really should broaden your outlook on life.

Well so much for my analytic powers!

Good job Korean Wave! Really good job Joo Mi Kim!

It was good to see Lorena Ochoa coming back, I wish she had taken the chance on the last hole and went for the green with her second shot.

And finally, congratulations Morgan Pressel steady play and a T5 made a great first pro tourney.

one-Putt, I will state without trepidation, you are an overbearing "stage father." Admit it! That is, if you are able.

One Putt.

I don't know about the stage father part, but you have to admit that John Z knows what it means to be overbearing.

John Z said: 'Every parent I ever knew who was involved in these "sports" was a raving fanatic.'

John Z, I am starting to feel really sorry for you after reading this comment.

How unlucky you are to live in a place where "every parent you ever knew who was involved in these "sports" was a raving fanatic!"

That experience must have affected you so much and now I understand why you are so much negative about Michelle and her parents.

I hope you to move to a place where every parent you will ever know who is involved in these "sports" is not raving fanatic.

"Comment from: Jim COULTHARD [Visitor]
One Putt.

I don't know about the stage father part, but you have to admit that John Z knows what it means to be overbearing."

I am quite the opposite of a "Stage Father". My kids were allowed to participate in outside activities if they followed the rule of "B". The rule was very simple; if they maintained a "B-average" in school my wife and I would support their after school/weekend activities. If they failed to achieve the standard they stayed home and studied. Fortunately for them they were good students and well adjusted kids. It appears Miss Wie has the same qualities and I congratulate her parents.

My sports were quite different from what my kids chose and I made a point of scheduling my own time at events along with theirs. I didn't encourage them to follow what I did for enjoyment and relaxation.

I picked up golf late in life after quitting my other sports due to age and injuries (tennis was not one of them). If I knew then, what I know now I would have played much earlier and encouraged my kids to do the same.

John Z's demensia is legendary at this forum and should be ignored along with any advice from "Former" Tennis Pros.

Summary of Morgan Pressels Performance

From a normal point of view:
- Morgan Pressel had a 5th place finish. This was very good for her first pro event, and her first event of a new season. She played well and a top 5 finish is a good achievement in this tournament.

From the Anti-Wie peoples point of view:
- Morgan Pressel's 5th place was a disaster. She got into contention but she blew it. She was right there but unfortunately Pressel just WASN'T ABLE TO CLOSE THE DEAL. She hadn't the intestinal fortitude. She hadn't the bottle. When she got into contention, she folded.
What a disaster. Can she overcome this devastating blow or will it affect her for the rest of the season.

Obviously the 2nd point of view was based on those anti-Wie people, and the way they post here when they are discussing Wie's performances.

So the official order of finish is:

Korea
Korea
Mexico
England
Brazil
US
US

On to the Fields to see if Creamer, Pressel, Gulbis or Wie can salve America's wounded pride...

PS. The official name of the South Korean nation is Republic of Korea frequently abbreviate ROK.

And boy do those ROKs Rock.

One-Putt, Demensia? Does that mean I've lost my membership in Mensa? From the tenor of your denial, I've concluded that if you're not a "stage father" there ain't a cow in Texas.

It was nice to see a playoff in an LPGA event, added a little excitement. But the crowd seemed awfully small for the playoff, they showed one shot of them teeing off and it looked like there were around 10 people watching. Wonder if they would have been bigger if there was an American in the group.

Good day for Korea, first two in the SBS Open and they finally got payback against Apolo Ohno.

John Neal,
The Americans could seriously do with good performances in the Fields.
How are they likely to do when Annika starts playing?
They need to do the business while she is missing from tournaments lineups. It will be much more difficult later, when Annika starts playing again.

George said:
As long as you're doing a play-by-play of 2006 LPGA events, One-Putt, it looks as if Paula's worked her way up to 15th place at -3, 5 back.

But what must really be killing you Wie Maniacs, Creamer Haters and Pressel Haters (which are redundant phrases by definition) is where Pressel is, -6, T4, and two back of the leader (as of 1:50 p.m. Pacific time)
**********************************

George, Pressel finished in a tie for 5th.
Creamer finished in a tie for 13th.

These are good finishes, and I am glad that you have acknowledged this.
Hopefully, you will acknowledge Wie's good finish if she has a similar outcome in The Fields Open.

Maybe you will acknowledge it, but somehow I doubt it.

Norman,

I have no reason to suppose that the Americans en masse will equal Annika's win record next season. There was certainly nothing in the opener to suggest that Annika can't keep on winning every second tournament she enters.

That said I expect Paula Creamer to do much better on the mainland than she has done so far in Hawai'i. Morgan Pressel was inches or less away from a far better performance on several holes. Natalie Gulbis looked more like a golfer and less like a runway model this week. And [obligatory comment;-)] Michelle Wie is yet to be heard from on the LPGA this year.

I expect Annika will still rule the roost, but I suspect she will feel the heat a little more this year.

Comment from: Norman [Visitor]
George said:
As long as you're doing a play-by-play of 2006 LPGA events, One-Putt, it looks as if Paula's worked her way up to 15th place at -3, 5 back.

But what must really be killing you Wie Maniacs, Creamer Haters and Pressel Haters (which are redundant phrases by definition) is where Pressel is, -6, T4, and two back of the leader (as of 1:50 p.m. Pacific time)
**********************************

** George, Pressel finished in a tie for 5th.
Creamer finished in a tie for 13th. **

Another play-by-play man! Did One-Putt ask you to take over the broadcasting duties because Paula didn't finish T67 like he was hoping? Has he emerged from his hospital bed yet?

** These are good finishes, and I am glad that you have acknowledged this. **

Twisting other posters' words again, I see. My point was that the other the Wie Warriors, Creamer Haters and the Pressel Haters -- which are redundant -- had to be furious because Paula dramatically bounced back from R1. And they had to be even more furious that Pressel was in striking distance in the tournament.

** Maybe you will acknowledge it, but somehow I doubt it. **

You mean take note of whether Wie wins or fails to win? I'm sure a lot of people will comment about whether she wins her first or fails once again to do so.

-George

One putt. I was trying to subtly call whats his name overbearing.

I see that a 67-70 is considered to be a good example of bouncing back on the LPGA by a George. Wie supporters think a 68 was a good example of bouncing back on the PGA--and yes, I think most of us will give Paula Creamer credit for bouncing back and scoring a respectable top 20 finish. It was , however, a little strange to see George brag about high finishes for Pressel and Creamer at the SBS--but pointedly refuse to look at Wie's effort at the Fields next week in anything but Tiger or Annika terms where anything less than a win is considered a loss.

Last year Annika won 10 of 20 events. Americans won 9, while other international players won 11. With 2 new events, but with Annika apparently still playing only 20, we might expect one more American win if everything were like last year. That wouild tie the Americans with Annika. But I think the Americans will be improved this year--so don't expect Annika to win more than all the Americans again this year.

It will be a challenge for the Americans to improve. Of the 17 new exempt rookies, 6 are American, 7 Asian, 3 European and 1 from Paraguay. We'll see.

The Golf Channel producers are the Worldwide experts in making the crowds look larger than they really are. This comes from years of experience covering LPGA and European Tour events. I will be curious to see what the attendance figures were at Turtle Bay and how they compare to Ko Olina when Michelle and Ai (her fans left after she completed her round) are in the field. Believe me the SBS event sponsors will be watching the attendance/viewership numbers from the Fields.

Michelle will feel the pressure to Win at Ko Olina (her home course) for several reasons. A win would guarantee her a spot in the LPGA Open, a win in Hawaii would be the ultimate for the hometown favorite and finally the most important reason; a moment of silence from her critics.

One-Putt,
If you think a win would silence her critics for even one day, I'm afraid you are underestimating them.

Don't worry, they would find some angle to try to dampen down her achievement.

George said:
My point was that the other the Wie Warriors, Creamer Haters and the Pressel Haters -- which are redundant -- had to be furious because Paula dramatically bounced back from R1.
*********************

Okay George, I've quoted you directly.
You call Creamer's 2nd round a bounce back. As Jim Coulthard has stated, if Creamer's was bouncing back, then Wie's 2nd round at the Sony of 68 was most definetely a bounce back. I don't expect you to acknowledge this though as it would go against form.





***********************************
George said:
You mean take note of whether Wie wins or fails to win? I'm sure a lot of people will comment about whether she wins her first or fails once again to do so.
**********************************

So anything other than a win is a failure for her in your opinion. Yet you were full of praise for both Pressel and Creamer.
Did they not fail to win?

Yes, onward to the Field of Dreams -- "If you build it, they will come." This being Wie's backyard, I expect her to run away with the tournament. Does anybody know the odds for the top players in next week's tournament? I'd say she wins by 10 strokes.

Michelle has only been playing from the ladies tees (LPGA standards) for the last month or so and I wouldn't expect to see her driver in play much if it is very windy or on a dog leg par 5. Of course her three wood distance equals the LPGA average driving stats for most players.

A funny thing happened...

------------------------------

During the awards ceremony at the LPGA's Kraft Nabisco Championship last March, where Michelle Wie edged out Morgan Pressel for low amateur honors, Wie watched Annika Sorenstam take the traditional champion's dive into the pond along the 18th green at Mission Hills Country Club in Palm Springs, Calif.

Wie turned to Pressel during the trophy ceremony and asked if she should start a new tradition by also jumping into the water as low amateur.

"Well, I'll be happy to give you a push," Pressel said.

We think Pressel was kidding.

------------------------------

NORMAN

One win for Michelle Wie won't silence her critics, but two wins might--if they were at the John Deere, qualifying her for the Open Championship--and then another win the next week at the Open Championship. Kidding aside, at the LPGA level she will probably need to win a couple of Majors this year to seriously dampen the criticism directed at her.

George--
Just admit that you have a bias against Michelle

Be a man about it because you sound really stupid kissing the respective asses of Pressel and Creamer for 5th and 13th place finishes --then go around knocking Michelle Wie for finishing 2nd or 3rd in LPGA majors.

(Michelle is still younger than both Pressel and Creamer but I know you're not one for "facts" )

Michelle would need to win the LPGA Grand Slam to silence her critics along with making a PGA cut. Of course that would only silence them for this season. Who knows what they will say when she turns seventeen.

Yes One-Putt, no matter what she were to do on the lpga, it wouldn't be good enough for them.
They would simply move on to the pga.

Jim suggested winning the Mens British Open might be enough, but I think our learned anti-Wie brigade would point out how poor this is compared to Jack's career.

Wayne, I think 10 strokes might be pushing it, in a 3 round tournament.
Even, a one stroke win would do very nicely.

When all you Wie-Nuts get finished patting yourselves on the back and loftily upturnig your collective noses at those who don't want to deify Michelle Wie just yet, maybe you might come to realize this: Most real students and fans of the game of golf don't wish any ill on Michelle, nor do they doubt her talent. I know that I don't. What I and most others find absurd is the willingness of all Wie sycophants to bestow immortality and sainthood on a teenie bopper who has yet to win a LPGA tournament or make a cut in ANY men's tournament despite several well-publicized attempts at both. She undoubtedly will win a LPGA event fairly soon and when she does she will have my admiration and congratulations. But you folks are not willing to wait for that eventuality. And that is why you folks, NOT MICHELLE, are laughed at by some on this board.

I'm not sure why people think that put downs and trash talk is a means of winning a debate. It does nothing for the debate and less than nothing for those that practice this form. Wie-nuts? Pressel haters, Creamer/Pressel ass-kissers? Wow.
Come on you guys, surely there is a better way to debate than this.

Quite frankly, I admire Pressel, Creamer and Wie. I for one am quite willing to wait and see what they do in their respective careers without jamming anyones opinion down the collective throats of any blog.

It all comes down to how you measure success. To some; winning is everything rather than giving it your best effort. To put this in perspective lets look at some of the seasoned golfers who finished in the top ten of the 2006 SBS:

Becky Iverson turned pro in 1995 and has one LPGA victory to her credit.

Johanna Head turned pro in 2000 and has one International victory to her credit.

Julie Inkster turned pro in 1983 and has thirty LPGA victories to her credit with seven majors, yet none in the last three seasons.

Christie Kerr turned pro in 1997 and has six victories to her credit with two wins last season.

Natalie Gulbis turned pro in 2002 and has no LPGA victories to her credit. Her highest finishes came in 2005 where she tied for third twice.

Miriam Nagl turned pro in 2002 and has no LPGA victories to her credit. Her highest finish was the tie for fifth she placed at this years SBS.

Karen Stupples turned pro in 1999 and has two LPGA victories to her credit, both came in 2004.

Lorena Ochoa turned pro in 2003 and has three LPGA victories to her credit with one coming last season.

Soo Young Moon turned pro in 2003 and has no LPGA victories to her credit. Her highest finish came at this years SBS.

Joo Mi Kim turned pro in 2005 and the SBS was her first LPGA win.

This isn't a lot of wins over the last couple of years and I have never heard a disparaging remark about any of them.

By any measurement the fifteen year old Miss Wie had a wonderful LPGA season last year in only seven measured events.

One-Putt, the discourse concerning the career and abilities of Miss Wie is beginning to make more sense. A few months ago on several of these threads, many were saying that very soon Michelle would be a force on the PGA tour. Even that she would win multiple majors on the men's tour. At least now, the talk is about if and when she will win an event on the LPGA tour and if several high finishes on the women's tour would be worthwhile. I personally think that if a young lady such as Michelle doesn't even win this year on the LPGA tour but makes every cut and finishes no lower than 20th in any event with several top tens, that she should be considered a success. High expectations are great as long as they are met or closely approached.

John Z, it seems to me you are a well-educated person but why are you throwing in words like "all you Wie-Nuts," "all Wie sycophants?"

I don't mind you disagreeing with someone but I think your arguments would have been much effective if you had pointed your finger at the specific people whose claims you think were absurd.

And one more thing, are you a fan of a sport team or a sport player? If you are, then you would probably know that some fans would go to the extreme to show their interst but we probably wouldn't criticize them as long as they don't hurt others.

Lastly, I am glad that there is someone like you who doesn't doubt Wie's talent. I, even a Wie's fan, doubt her talent once in a while.

Someone made a comment about Creamer's extra driving not helping her yet because she hadn't been doing well at the SBS.

When someone adds distance to their drving, it takes a bit of time for them to adjust to it. Of course there was bound to be a couple of slight problems at the start of the season, but Paula won't be worried about this. She still got a relatively high position, and she should improve as she gets used to her new swing.

Creamer for the pga.

>>Comment from: Ronnie [Visitor]
"Someone made a comment about Creamer's extra driving not helping her yet because she hadn't been doing well at the SBS.

When someone adds distance to their drving, it takes a bit of time for them to adjust to it. Of course there was bound to be a couple of slight problems at the start of the season, but Paula won't be worried about this. She still got a relatively high position, and she should improve as she gets used to her new swing."

Hmm, the previous post got chopped off for some reason. Oh well, probably not worth repeating anyway.

Was there any 300 yarders from Creamer at the SBS Open?

Checking out the stats, Creamer averaged 246.3 yards off the tee, which sounds pretty poor, but it did put her tied for 14th, so it isn't that bad really.

Last year, at the same event she averaged 256.0 yards, but that only put her in 28th place in the driving ranks.

So against the field she is gaining a bit of ground it could be said.

Pressel averaged 242.8 yards.
It will be interesting how Wie compares against the others in the Fields.
Although Wie will probably be taking a little something off her drives as others have stated.

Norman, WERE there any 300 yard drives by Paula...? I don't know, WERE there any? Come on, you Johnnie Bulls! You can do better!:-)

Ronnie I think the PGA is ready for Paula right now. What is holding her back? With her immense talent she could easily make the cut at any event she chooses to enter.

I think Paula had one 375 yard drive on a Par 5 at the SBS Ronnie. Can you confirm this?

This should settle some discourse:

Sorenstam No. 1 in new rankings

No one doubted Annika Sorenstam was the No. 1 player in women's golf. Now it's official. The Women's World Golf Ranking finally makes its debut this morning with Sorenstam far atop the list based on her 21 victories worldwide and three major championships over the last two years. Such is her dominance that Sorenstam's lead was nearly double that of Paula Creamer at No. 2. The only surprise was Michelle Wie. The 16-year-old from Hawaii, who turned pro in October, checked in at No. 3 and could move ahead of Creamer depending on what happens in the Fields Open in Hawaii this week on the LPGA Tour. The women's ranking, sponsored by Rolex, will be published every Tuesday and used as criteria for getting into tournaments such as the LPGA Championship, the Women's British Open and the HSBC Women's World Match Play. The system measures performance over two years, with emphasis placed on the most recent 13-week period. Points are assigned based on the strength of field, then divided by the number of tournaments played.

The world rankings show absolutely how silly the argument of Wie having to qualify for the US Open is.

She is world number 3, and a good way ahead of number 4, and just behind number 2:

1 Sorenstam 18.47
2 Creamer 9.65
3 Wie 9.24
4 Fudoh 7.37
5 Kerr 6.94

Someone who is world number 3 should not have to qualify for any major tournament. Anyone in the mens top 50 are automatically qualified.
Surely the womens number 3 should get in, based on that ranking.
The rankings are great because they show just how silly the arguments of the begrudgers are.

Comment from: Norman [Visitor]

** Okay George, I've quoted you directly.
You call Creamer's 2nd round a bounce back. As Jim Coulthard has stated, if Creamer's was bouncing back, then Wie's 2nd round at the Sony of 68 was most definetely a bounce back. I don't expect you to acknowledge this though as it would go against form. **

Do you acknowledge that Michelle Wie's goal at the Sony was to make the cut in a men's event?

Did Wie succeed in that goal?

-George

The "bedgrudgers" (nice word) will complain that it was rigged to include Wie since the minumum number of events (15) is exactly the number Wie has played. However, it's possible she won't be on the list in June since she is currently at exactly 15 events, she played 3 events in 2004 before June, and (I think) she is only scheduled for 2 events before the US Open.

to Shane, J. Coulthard and Norman

** Comment from: Shane [Visitor]

**George--
Just admit that you have a bias against Michelle

Be a man about it because you sound really stupid kissing the respective asses of Pressel and Creamer for 5th and 13th place finishes --then go around knocking Michelle Wie for finishing 2nd or 3rd in LPGA majors. **

Shane, you and the other Wie Warriors have some reading comprehension issues.

In discussing the Creamer and Pressel finishes -- which were NOT victories -- I brought both of those up in the context that their play would infuriate the Wie Warriors, Creamer Haters and Pressel Haters -- which are redundant phrases.

Judging from the responses, it does look as if they are miffed.

The issue with Michelle Wie is whether Wie wins her first LPGA tournament and whether she makes a men's tournament cut.

**(Michelle is still younger than both Pressel and Creamer but I know you're not one for "facts" ) **

Yawn! Here's the tired "But Michelle is ONLY (fill in age here)". Got some news for you, Shane. You Wie Warriors flogged that deceased equine in 2005. Time for you to catch up.

-George

George said:
Do you acknowledge that Michelle Wie's goal at the Sony was to make the cut in a men's event?

Did Wie succeed in that goal?
*********************************

I achnowledge that Michelle had A GOAL of making the cut at the Sony. I also acknowledge that she did not achieve this goal.

However that wasn't her only goal. As she stated before it, part of her goal was to learn from her experience of playing with the best guys in this business.
I think it is fairly safe to say that she achieved this goal.

George said:
The issue with Michelle Wie is whether Wie wins her first LPGA tournament and whether she makes a men's tournament cut.
*****************************

If that is the issue for you, then fine let that be your issue.

For me, the issue is that she improves her play over the coming season.
The issue of an lpga win is not near as important for me, as it is that she plays well. For example if she were to finish 2nd in 2 majors behind Annika, I think that would be far better than winning a normal run of the mill lpga tournament.
So much of it depends on the way things happen and how she plays, as opposed to the results.

Actually folks the way I read it, the applicable rule for EVERYONE on the list is 8 events in the last 52 weeks. The LPGA Info sheet states that rule applys for anyone 'who has not been on the list before'. Since this is the first list, no one has ever been on the list before.

While I am only presuming here, I don't see how they can drop anyone under the 8 event rule until at least a year has passed. It would make little sense to list a player for one week with 8 events in the last 52 weeks, and then drop them the next month because they 'had been on the list before' and now only had 9 events in the last 52 weeks.

But, there is much still to be explained about the whole process including "WHY ISN'T MORGAN PRESSEL ON THE LIST!" She has exactly 8 events in the last 52 weeks including the 2006 SBS...Somebody needs to explain something.

** If that is the issue for you, then fine let that be your issue.

For me, the issue is that she improves her play over the coming season.**

Well, pilgrim, that's cause it allows you to induldge in your pretzel logic that enables you to twist a non-first-place result into a win.

** The issue of an lpga win is not near as important for me, as it is that she plays well. **

Same issue. By using criteria other than wins and losses, you increase your odds that you can concoct some rationale that suits your fantasies.

** So much of it depends on the way things happen and how she plays, as opposed to the results. **

Riiiiight. Because that's why they keep score. To FEEEEL how somebody played -- as opposed to trying to figure out who won the tournament.

If winning didn't count, Norman, then why was it that Phil Mickelson for so long was under scrutiny because he hadn't won a men's major? Mickelson was known as the "Best player who never won a major." The key phrase, for you logic-impaired Wie Warriors, is "won a major."

Then after Mickelson won the Masters, the questions emerged about whether he was a one-and-done major champ, as so many others have been.

See? The analysts and the media wondered about how often did Phil win. They weren't really worried about how many top 10 finishes Phil had. They wanted to know how many Top 1 finishes he had.

-George

George,

I don't remember anyone asking how many Top 1 performances in a Major Phil Mikelson had 2 years before he was eligible to join the PGA Tour. Nor do I believe the issue came up at all until his 5th or 6th year on tour.

If Michelle has not won an LPGA Major by the age of 22 (presuming she joins the tour at age 17), then I'm sure people will be asking the same questions about her that they have been asking about Phil.

Until then, the comparison is a bit ridiculous.

I have expectations Morgan will win on the LPGA tour.

I have expectations Ai will win on the LPGA tour.

I have expectations Paula will continue to win on the LPGA tour.

I don't have the same expectations for Michelle.

Morgan, Paula and Ai will play at least 20 to 25 events on the LPGA tour this year and Ai will also play some Japan LPGA tour events.

The more you play the higher the odds are you will place yourself in a position to win and Michelle (who is not a LPGA Tour member) will only have eight events on her schedule making it difficult for her to reach the level of play needed to win. She likes playing with the best and that puts Annika in the field on most of her LPGA tour stops.

Once she turns eighteen and can play a full LPGA schedule (if she chooses to do so) all bets are off and I will expect her to have some victories to her credit.

In the meantime I will enjoy watching Morgan, Michelle, Ai and Paula adding some zip to what was a pretty boring LPGA tour before they came along. These gals will win and they will win alot in the future.

** Comment from: John Neal [Visitor]
George,

** I don't remember anyone asking how many Top 1 performances in a Major Phil Mikelson had 2 years before he was eligible to join the PGA Tour. Nor do I believe the issue came up at all until his 5th or 6th year on tour. **

What you're saying then, is that conceptually it *IS* a legitimate area of scrutiny to measure somebody by whether they win or do not win a golf tournament. You simply have an issue with the timing.

Thank you. A modicum of sanity, at last.

** If Michelle has not won an LPGA Major by the age of 22 (presuming she joins the tour at age 17), then I'm sure people will be asking the same questions about her that they have been asking about Phil.

Until then, the comparison is a bit ridiculous. **

Ooops. Sorry. I spoke too soon. You do not suffer from the ravages of logic after all.

So nobody can ask why it is Michelle Wie has not won an LPGA tournament, any tournament. We're not talking majors here, just any tournament. Nobody is supposed to even pay attention to how she does until she's 18.

So the Wie Warrior Mantra will continue:

If she fails to win, SHE'S ONLY (fill in the age here)!

Or -- AT LEAST SHE'S TRYING!

No matter what, you've got an excuse. Michelle turns pro but must never be evaluated as a professional golfer. Except the last time I checked, they kept score in pro tournaments because they wanted to figure out who won the event.

-George

GEORGE

Pauka Creamer didn't win until her 9th event as a pro--and she missed an LPGA cut in her 8th event before she had ever won. If you want to brag about how younf Paula Creamer was when she won her first LPGA event, shouldn't you at least give Michelle Wie either 9 events as a pro or time until she is 18 years and 8 months which was Paula Creamer's oh so young age at the time of her firstr win?

George,
Nobody disputes that wins are important.
The issue is timing and schedule.

It is not a failing to not have won, at an age where nobody has won until 2 years beyond that age.

Here is a quote from One-Putt to expalin the scheduling part:
*********************
The more you play the higher the odds are you will place yourself in a position to win and Michelle (who is not a LPGA Tour member) will only have eight events on her schedule making it difficult for her to reach the level of play needed to win.
*********************

Perfect just what I was searching for! .