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16 comments

Comment from: Ron Mon [Member] Email
I'll put Kaluhyat at Turning Stone, from the tips, up against Mystic Rock. A friend swears that Thunder Hill, in NE Ohio, is the toughest course from the tips in the world. It goes about 7700 with ridiculous carries over water that no sane architect would ever create.
09/06/08 @ 21:56
Comment from: Judge Smails [Visitor] Email
Interesting piece. But, really, what is the point? I'm a 3.6 handicap, yet, I have no desire to torture myself with an unrealistically tough course. A layout of more than 8000 yards? I can't even imagine that. I hope that all the really long holes play downhill.
09/06/08 @ 23:26
Comment from: Tim McDonald [Member] Email
Because the best of us -- in sprit and character, not necessarily an artificial number -- want to be tested against the most formidable enemy.

09/07/08 @ 07:06
Comment from: Booger [Visitor] Email
I see your point Tim, however 8,000+ courses are only going to lead to more equipment changes. I still use a persimmon driver, because I like the sound of it. I can hit it 280, which is a respectable distance for that club. I'd have to run out and get a metal wood to be competitive on these long courses, and that's not something I am willing to do. There are plenty of 6,500 yard courses where you have to play your absolute best to break 80. Modern architecture is destroying the game.
09/07/08 @ 10:09
Comment from: Judge Smails [Visitor] Email
Booger,

Some years back I played a course called "The Country Club of the Poconos" a few times. It's a new Fazio design course that is UNDER 6000 yards. Yet, it's tough. In fact, it is the toughest short course I've ever played. It has a slope rating of 142, which is higher than most.

One interesting thing about it is that it's a course you absolutely cannot walk. There are some really long stretches between holes; in fact, you have to drive about a mile (I'm not exaggerating) between two of them. It's certainly a course you don't forget.
09/07/08 @ 12:13
Comment from: Booger [Visitor] Email
Thanks Judge, I checked the website and it looks very interesting. I've been meaning to play Shawnee for years and will add CCP to the eventual itinerary.
09/07/08 @ 14:35
Comment from: Brandon Tucker [Member] Email
The hardest course I've ever played is the Prince Course at Princeville, if only because the winds can often be so high. There is a hole, I believe the 13th, where from an elevated tee, you have to hit a tiny little fairway well below that looks about as wide as a doorway and on each side is thick jungle. If you gave me 20 balls I don't think I'd be able to put it in play.
09/07/08 @ 15:21
Comment from: Judge Smails [Visitor] Email
Booger,

I played Shawnee around the same time I played TCCOTP. It's also a nice course. Actually, I believe I played a bit at Shawnee when I was a little kid, as we used to occasionally vacation there over long weekends.
09/07/08 @ 19:19
Comment from: Kiel Christianson [Visitor] Email
I see TM's point: If they're going to build courses so long and hard, it's fun to step up to the challenge and see how we can perform. At the same time I see JS's point, which is, I believe: Why spend so much time, effort and money building courses that are too long and too hard for nearly everyone, even very low handicappers?

And, on a side note, I guarantee I can design an 18-hole course that is, oh, between 3,000 and 4,500 yards that would be so hard no one would ever, ever want to play it. Length does not equal difficulty.
09/07/08 @ 21:06
Comment from: Judge Smails [Visitor] Email
Kiel,

My point is that there's something called the spirit of the game. And my attitude toward a course will hinge on whether or not it is in keeping with it.

For instance, I know a course in upstate NY that has a couple of extremely unrealistic holes. One is a par 3 that plays 200 yards and is basically surrounded by water. If you miss the green even by a smidgen, you'll most likely be in the water; in fact, you may even be in if you hit the side of the green and roll off.

Now, I'm not one to call courses unfair very often, but that qualifies. There's no transitional area, like bunkers surrounding the green, to catch mediocre shots. No, if you're just a bit off from 200 yards, you can be penalized harshly.

That's not golf.

The spirit of the game is that if you hit a slightly errant shot, you're penalized slightly; if it's egregiously errant, then you may be penalized harshly.

Having a hole such as the aforementioned does a disservice to the game because luck becomes too much of a factor. If two guys are playing such a course and hit the same number of equally errant shots but one does so at the "wrong time," he can lose big. I realize that timing is always a factor in golf, but this element shouldn't be magnified to a ridiculous extent. I mean, the hole in question doesn't even really have a bailout area. It would be fine if you could hit a wedge to 8-iron to the green, but from 200 yards? Forget about it.

I've been long-winded, but my point is that it depends on whether or not the course is realistic. You can always design a layout so tough that no one can play it well without getting lucky, but that proves nothing and isn't golf, in my opinion.
09/08/08 @ 00:23
Comment from: Ron Mon [Member] Email
Here is a question for all to entertain...what irons do you wish to hit into the greens of two-shot holes? If you want to hit wedges all day, move up to the 5800 to 6000 yard tees. If you want to mix in some short and middies, go to the next set. If you're after all your irons, you might have to go to the third set. What do the tips represent for some of us? The opportunity to go back to the game as it was invented, where approach shots to par four holes were played will all clubs, from great to small.
09/09/08 @ 05:52
Comment from: Ron Mon [Member] Email
I do agree, though, that gimmick holes take away from the spirit of the game. The holes from the middle tees that simply do not allow for bail nor strategy are unfortunate ones. Smails, I'd love to know the upstate NY course you're referencing. Is it in the Catskills, by chance?
09/09/08 @ 05:54
Comment from: Judge Smails [Visitor] Email
Ron,

Yes, it's in the Catskills. It's Hanah Country Club. Most of the holes are fine, but they have a few (two in particular) that are a bit ridiculous.
09/09/08 @ 11:06
Comment from: Ron Mon [Member] Email
Haven't played it. The Monster was the course I was considering, although it has been a while, my memory is fuzzy, and I heard that they plowed it under for housing this year. What a waste of great property that one was. Stupid wealthy people who tell a half-assed designer to build the hardest course in the world. Now that's integrity. Especially when you compared it with the International, a simple course if ever there was one.
09/09/08 @ 20:21
Comment from: Judge Smails [Visitor] Email
Ron Mon,

I went to the Concord's website, and nothing indicated that the course is no longer in existence. Of course, that's not definitive, however.

If they did pave it over, though, wouldn't that make it the "hardest" golf course in the world?
09/10/08 @ 10:05
Comment from: Irv [Visitor] Email
I'm 57 years old. I only have one arm due to an accident 3 years ago. I just started playing this year. I'm a bad golfer. The hardest course in the world is whatever course I happen to be on at the moment. It still beats working.
10/06/08 @ 14:14

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